Talkswindon Archive - 2005 to 2010

Politics: Swindon & Westminster => Political News & Debate => Topic started by: Steve Wakefield on December 19, 2010, 08:44:21 am

Title: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 19, 2010, 08:44:21 am
The snow will soon melt and with Luvvies leaving behind the LibDems and a senior LibDem Cllr calling Pickles and Schapps Laurel and Hardy, will the Libdem Vote melt? But don't worry LibDems your mate Cameron is popping in to save the Libdem conservative coalition. I know its the Telegraph, but its worth reading this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/david-cameron/8211591/Cameron-tones-down-Oldham-by-election-campaign-as-coalition-cracks-appear.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/david-cameron/8211591/Cameron-tones-down-Oldham-by-election-campaign-as-coalition-cracks-appear.html)


Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 09:11:07 am
Oldham East and Saddleworth? That's a 'red rosette on a Donkey' job if ever there was one.

We're talking about people who actually voted for Phil Woolas  :santa_grin:

The LibDems/Clegg look screwed, nationally, though. Latest ComRes figures for the left-wing Mirror:

Which leader is turning out to be a good leader of their party/prime minister:

David Cameron: 38%
Nick Clegg: 26%
Ed Milliband: 17%

Even more surprisingly, Labour are down a point on voting intention (which means they're faring as badly as the LibDems, yet the 'deep cuts' Tories are UP a point - what on earth are Labour doing wrong??)

Voting intention

Lab 39% (-1)
Con 37% (+1)
LD 11% (-1)
Other 13% (+1)


Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 19, 2010, 09:38:37 am
I am pleased to see your endorsement of Labour and that in your opinion it is such a  safe bet Labour only won with a majority of 103 votes. If the Moredon vote was repeated then the Libdem result will interesting don't you think? Even after coming back and posting your stats I still thank you for the endorsement.

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 09:42:57 am
I am pleased to see your endorsement of Labour

Writing off certain areas as safe Labour seats is far from an 'endorsement', I can assure you.

and that in your opinion it is such a  safe bet Labour only won with a majority of 103 votes. If the Moredon vote was repeated then the Libdem vote would interesting don't you think?

Any area that will vote Phil Woolas into Parliament is barely worth discussing, frankly.  Any area that would continue to reward Labour after knowing what Phil Woolas has done pretty much descends into a laughing stock.
Title: Thank You, 20 Eyes For declaring a 103 Labour Majority is a Safe Labour Seat.
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 19, 2010, 09:51:28 am
Again you have pointed out that Labour won thanks for repeating this fact. If a you are writing off a 103 majority as a safe labour seat then maybe your view is shared by many more people than you think.

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 09:55:06 am
Again you have pointed out that Labour won thanks for repeating this fact.

Hang on, weren't you a Toryboy at one point? Did they lob you out or something? You do seem very bitter.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 19, 2010, 10:01:20 am
As they say it takes one to know one. In answer to your 3 part question

Yes its a matter of public record

No

Actually I am quite mild

Are you a Tory troll?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 10:04:26 am
It takes one to know one.

If that's the level of your debate, no wonder Mr Montaut welcomed you with open arms.

Funnily enough, I'm not actually a Tory. Although, unlike some, I've always known my own mind and have never deviated from a committed anti-Labour stance.

ETA: I see you realised how bad your initial post looked and then went back to edit it  :santa_grin:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 19, 2010, 10:07:32 am
Yes I edited it as I thought I would answer all of it
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 19, 2010, 10:14:38 am
It takes one to know one.

If that's the level of your debate, no wonder Mr Montaut welcomed you with open arms.

Funnily enough, I'm not actually a Tory. Although, unlike some, I've always known my own mind and have never deviated from a committed anti-Labour stance.

ETA: I see you realised how bad your initial post looked and then went back to edit it  :santa_grin:
Yes I edited it as I thought I would answer all of it

I hope you don't mind but I went back and edited again well actually I added to it:

Thank You,
I'm not actually a Tory. Although, unlike some, I've always known my own mind and have never deviated from a committed anti-Labour stance.


Thanks for the making that clear, it is interesting to see that you take an anti-labour stance why is that if you don't mind me asking?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 10:21:49 am
Well thanks for the making that clear, it is interesting to see that you take an anti-labour stance why is that if you don't mind me asking?

Because I detest everything that party has done, whilst in government, in its entire history of existence - the last 13 years being amongst the most disgraceful of all.

I realise that Talk Swindon is a left-wing forum, but you really shouldn't call people names such as 'Tory Troll' just because they might not simply agree with you.

Believe me, if there was a party that could beat Labour forevermore that wasn't the Tory party, I'd be first in line to vote for them. As it stands, currently, they're the only party open to me to vote for. Such is our system of politics (which is still two-party, realistically).
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 19, 2010, 11:35:00 am
Its odd to say that TS is a left wing forum, as I remember when it was called a right wing forum and that anyone with a left view would not come on here. As for Tory Troll it was a question, however your answer is very clear you are not Labour. I think that TS is a forum that justs allows posters to post and that is why I contnue to post on here. It does not try to convert, or influence views it allows expression and I think that there have been posters from Socialist Unity, Labour, Conservative, UKIP, Libdem, Green, BNP and Independent. Have we had any communists?

I think that I am not known for "calling" people for not agreeing with me, however I do scrutinise and question. Like anyone else I have disagreements with people.  If I am wrong I admit it. I think you are very clear about your views and such clarity is welcomed by me.  I am sure there will be other subjects we will have different views on. There is much room for pluralism  of political views on TS.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 19, 2010, 05:20:33 pm
It looks like the Libdems are going to win this one easily http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20101219/tuk-cable-tories-have-no-chance-in-by-el-dba1618.html (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20101219/tuk-cable-tories-have-no-chance-in-by-el-dba1618.html)
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tea Boy on December 19, 2010, 05:37:31 pm
I realise that Talk Swindon is a left-wing forum, but you really shouldn't call people names such as 'Tory Troll' just because they might not simply agree with you.


Is TS a left wing forum? Seems to me it's open to all comers, I'd watch that persecution complex... As I see it, it's open to opinions, laughs, fun, politics, rants and grumps from all directions.

If debate is too much for the right wingers out there who can blame others for having a go at it.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Muggins on December 19, 2010, 05:42:38 pm
Not had much fun and laughs since 20 Eyes joined.   :santa_grin:

Bring back Chav and Mart
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 05:43:12 pm
Is TS a left wing forum? Seems to me it's open to all comers, I'd watch that persecution complex... As I see it, it's open to opinions, laughs, fun, politics, rants and grumps from all directions.

It's open to all, of course, but the general impression I get is that it's left-leaning in the main. The left are very good at denying bias. I'm sure you've heard of the BBC  :santa_wink:

Interesting you mention a 'persecution complex', as it tends to be the left who are expert at whipping out the victim card whenever they don't happen to like something/feel they're losing the debate.

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 05:44:05 pm
Not had much fun and laughs since 20 Eyes joined.   :santa_grin:

I rest my case - someone hears an opposing view and, all of a sudden, start making threats to stop posting and suchlike. Bit of a shame, really.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Muggins on December 19, 2010, 05:49:09 pm
Who made a threat to stop posting....??
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 05:53:07 pm
Who made a threat to stop posting....??

Hmm, now let me think...
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 19, 2010, 06:10:12 pm
I did....rob magic, who else, I miss rob. Muggins didnt , not in the slightest .
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Muggins on December 19, 2010, 06:24:49 pm
Oh, I did Mellon, very early on, as it's not like me to flounce out of anything, (Imagine that - a bit like Anne Widdicombe doing the passe doble  :santa_cheesy:) I fancy it was because the TS pack were after me for something.  I know to what 20 Eyes is referring, he had a go at the time, (a couple of weeks ago) and I explained it, in words of one syllables, then. The trouble is he doesn't always read responses properly, which makes it extremely difficult to hold a proper debate with him. If I had the time I'd look it up, but I haven't, nor have I got the inclination - I was hoping that he'd find it and then take it from there.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 19, 2010, 06:35:08 pm
I stand corrected
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 19, 2010, 06:35:59 pm
Who made a threat to stop posting....??

I am sure it was not you. I for one believe  it's good to have 20 eyes here on TS as it has has never stomped on any view be it  myopic, left, right or centre views it enjoys humour and  laughs, and Rob magic. On TS  we all know that all are welcome to post. That is why it has so many page reads and to be fair I think 20 eyes is driving up page reads and visits and bringing a little life to some threads. Long may they post and anyway everyone on here is capable of arguing their point and defending their position. I am sure Chav, Mart and Bobby Bingo  will all be along to give us all a shake up as TS approaches its 5th Birthday.

20 eyes like anyone of us that posts on here only represents one point of view their own opinion if they want to say its left or right leaning fine I am sure others may say its subversive. Whatever I shall continue posting and learning about what is going on in Swindon. Which way does the Advertiser lean the Link, the council's communication free papers and not forgetting BBC Swindon? It's a good question that 20 has raised don't you think?

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Simon on December 19, 2010, 06:44:32 pm
I realise that Talk Swindon is a left-wing forum

Not at all, it's a Swindon forum. I've been here since a couple of weeks after it was set up, and in my experience the members consist of people from all over the political spectrum. For most of its lifetime the average seems to have been slightly to the right of centre, although over the past year or so the average has shifted slightly to the left, with new members joining and seasoned members changing their points of view.

But throughout that time, even though I'm out on the green anarchist fringe of the political spectrum (no fan of any of the big parties), I've never been made to feel unwelcome to add my views to whatever debates are going on. That's the beauty of TS.

Sorry if I'm repeating the sentiments others have already posted here but I think it's worth reinforcing the point.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 07:24:10 pm
Muggins didnt , not in the slightest .

Quote from: muggins
Sorry Des did not intend it to be a rant although it was longer than my normal posts.  If anyone thinks I rant apart from 20eyes, I can always stop posting. Is he a member of our cabinet?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 19, 2010, 07:28:29 pm
Bit pointless 20 as I already said I stand corrected, so I don't know what your trying to achieve with that
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 07:49:27 pm
Bit pointless 20 as I already said I stand corrected, so I don't know what your trying to achieve with that

Well, when the person who made the statement questions who made such a statement, it's always best to clarify.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 19, 2010, 07:52:16 pm
But when the statement you made was clarified by the person to whom you were referring, then well your just wasting your own time really
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 19, 2010, 07:59:05 pm
But when the statement you made was clarified by the person to whom you were referring, then well your just wasting your own time really

Really? I thought I was helping:

Quote from: muggins
If I had the time I'd look it up, but I haven't, nor have I got the inclination - I was hoping that he'd find it and then take it from there.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 19, 2010, 08:02:31 pm
Really? Oh well.....
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tea Boy on December 19, 2010, 08:28:25 pm
Muggins, What's up with a good old rant? Why stop just because you think someone else might not think it's appropriate. Rant on, that's what I say, at least its impassioned debate........         .......... not petty point scoring.

Perhaps a few posters with 20Eyes slant on politics should get posting, surely a few of our local politicians ought to be able to hold an argument. Go on, there must be a few who read TS, but don't join in just in case they actually have to argue thier point. Of course it's difficult to say any forum is level or equal, if one side won't bring thier team to the pitch.

I agree with Ringer, it's good to have some one putting the politcal right's case. At least 20Eyes is doing that and is giving as good as he gets.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: bobwright on December 19, 2010, 11:02:42 pm
Is there any evidence that 20Eyes is a he?

If it helps I thought TS had left right leanings until I met Geoff, my mistake.

There must be something in 20Eyes experience to make him/her/middlesex hate Labour so much. Labour does make mistakes but I think that it is likely as it is taking on an establishment stemming from 1066.

As this is the season of goodwill I have to say I like 20Eyes contributions, they are challenging and helpful. Understanding the ground others stand on helps Labour to understand the tasks it faces. I know many minds are not for changing but that does not mean you can't enjoy the debates or reasons why someone sees things differently.

I would add one simple thing though, if you look at the world in a negative way it is not likely you are going to contribute something positive.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Geoff Reid on December 20, 2010, 01:21:29 am
I realise that Talk Swindon is a left-wing forum


If it helps I thought TS had left right leanings until I met Geoff, my mistake.


Talkswindon is an online community venue to which contributors bring and express their own experiences, opinions, thoughts and biases.

They do so in the knowledge that although their opinions may be attacked, tested and argued to nth degree, none of their posts will be moderated, censored or otherwise interfered with to suit or favour/disbenefit one contributor over another.

Applying a politically descriptive label to Talkswindon is a little simplistic and, as I think Bob Wright might agree, might indicate that the labeller hasn't fully appreciated the breadth, depth and purposes of the things and people being labelled.

you really shouldn't call people names such as 'Tory Troll' just because they might not simply agree with you.

Yup.  Imho, whether a member is using a pseudonym or real name, members should attack the members opinion and not the person.   I always find it gratifying to note that most members realise and acknowledge when they've gone a bit far and take it upon themselves to smooth things out again. 

In essence, this forum of 700'ish members self-moderates, which is generally what people do when they're empowered and trusted to get on with things.  I can't wait to see how much autonomy Councillors Greenhalgh and Harrison will allow visitors to their 'official' forum when, or if, it appears. 




Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tea Boy on December 20, 2010, 01:51:56 am
Is there any evidence that 20Eyes is a he?

Nope, its rather forward assumption of mine, I hadn't thought of it that much, Apologies to 20Eyes, if your a lady  :santa_kiss:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 09:27:24 am
Is there any evidence that 20Eyes is a he?

Nope, its rather forward assumption of mine, I hadn't thought of it that much, Apologies to 20Eyes, if your a lady  :santa_kiss:

As it happens, I'm male - although I hope that doesn't change what anyone thinks about what I've contributed, I'm not sure why it would.

Maybe I happened to see a number of what I considered left-leaning posts in a relatively short space of time, who knows?, but it was just an impression I got. I may not have expressed myself too well, as I hadn't intended to imply that the forum itself was actually intended to be left-leaning, simply that it appeared to me that many of the regular/frequent contributors were of that mindset. Naturally, I do realise that whenever a locally focussed site of this nature is related to a town with a Tory council (especially after a Tory general election win) it is likely to generate more anti-those in power comments - that's entirely reasonable and how these things usually work. I know that I've contributed far less to many (other) forums now that Labour have been banished.

To address bobwright's comment, I believe the perception of negative and positive are not necessarily the same for all. For example, I believe it's wholly negative that we endured 13 years of a massive increase in the amount of new laws, regulations and meddling in our lives by New Labour - Mr Wright would probably claim those things were positive. Much of it comes down to perspective. What I dislike intensely is the cynical manner with which New Labour, especially, twisted things to imply that people were being 'negative' when they were actually being negative about very negative things (ie, they were actually trying to be positive and prevent the rot from worsening). I suppose the classic example was how they smeared anyone who dared try and debate their deliberate policy of uncontrolled immigration as being 'racists'. Now THAT'S negativity for you.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Muggins on December 20, 2010, 04:12:42 pm
Muggins (some time ago!) "Sorry Des did not intend it to be a rant although it was longer than my normal posts.  If anyone thinks I rant apart from 20eyes, I can always stop posting. Is he a member of our cabinet?"

Thanks for finding that 20eyes.  See - that was not a threat,
but an offer. 

Difference is between - 'can' and 'will'.  Either way if I was going to flounce off, I wouldn't bother to post that I was going, I'd just do it.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 04:17:24 pm
Thanks for finding that 20eyes.  See - that was not a threat,
but an offer.

I like it. I'm going to remember that. Sounds like something Phil Mitchell would say  :2funny:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Muggins on December 20, 2010, 04:19:46 pm
Yeh, 'xepting I would be disappearing, not punching anyone on the nose!
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 20, 2010, 04:38:29 pm
Quote
Maybe I happened to see a number of what I considered left-leaning posts in a relatively short space of time, who knows?, but it was just an impression I got. I may not have expressed myself too well, as I hadn't intended to imply that the forum itself was actually intended to be left-leaning, simply that it appeared to me that many of the regular/frequent contributors were of that mindset

I think you'll find of the 'old school' long term posters, only Simon would readily state that he was left leaning. The majority of regular long standing posters on this forum would probably describe themselves as right leaning, if anything. There is a strong libertarian slant to most of our views. But them again, as most of us aren't political animals, weened through conservative or labour clubs or fixed expedient alegiances, we're also free to call a turd an turd.

I suggest you bother to have a read through TS. You'll find plenty of strong criticism of Labour policy and doctrine. In fact, until recently, Labour councillors refused to engage on TS because they thought it was a hotbed of right wing activists.

I guess if you piss off exptremists and indoctinates from either side, you're probably part of a functioning forum full off free thinking and speaking people who can tell shit from shinola.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 04:57:42 pm
There is a strong libertarian slant to most of our views.

Glad to hear it. I share that view.

But them again, as most of us aren't political animals, weened through conservative or labour clubs or fixed expedient alegiances, we're also free to call a turd an turd.

Same here. Although, I was asked to consider standing as a councillor once. No chance!
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 20, 2010, 05:02:55 pm
Good o!

then prepare for  :fence: on the level  :santa_afro:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: bobwright on December 20, 2010, 05:31:21 pm
I am not sure if I can tell Stork from Butter let alone Pepsi from Coke. Perhaps its my lack of ability to discern or perhaps that some things don't matter that much to me unless they are unpalatable.

I do not think the Labour Party would say that they got it all right over the last 13 years. I would also say no one political party has all the answers. I would say only one party is working for this country to be equitable and fair. The others seem to be more about power and who should have it, that includes bringing back power from Europe.

I have found Libertarian attitudes refreshing, however requiring personal responsibilty at a time when there is great inequality has limited value to the individuals faced by societal consequences such as loss of jobs whilst bankers enjoy huge bonuses. Just telling people they are wrong, they have fouled up will not engender change it will probably only put peoples backs up. I think that Libertine message carriers such as Pickles (Secretary of State for Communities) who has clearly lived off the fat of the land will find it very difficult to convice anyone this is a fair way to currently govern.

The previous Government may have made mistakes but at least they left the State relatively intact. I am not cynical about the current Governments action, I can see they are about ideological thinking and business opportunities for supporters. They offer solutions through the market place but still don't understand value beyond monetry wealth. By the way immigration is a major issue which I deal with on a regular basis. No one, absolutley no one, has stopped me dealing with or speaking about the issue.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 20, 2010, 05:44:15 pm
Tobes....Turd and Turd ? The last time I pointed out someone was a turd I got moaned at,

Be careful 20...when the turds start flying people tend to get upset
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 05:56:33 pm
I would say only one party is working for this country to be equitable and fair.

Who would that be then? Because social mobility and the gap between rich and poor was worse at the time Labour were booted out early this year than it was when Blair hoodwinked everyone back in 1997.

The previous Government may have made mistakes but at least they left the State relatively intact.

Despite the pretence, the 'State' is a tool by which Labour and the left seek to control and, ultimately, own the lives of the individual. The State cannot, and will not, ever know how to spend my money and shape my life better than I will myself - more to the point, I don't want it to try to. Mainly because the 'State' isn't some benevolent force, it's generally just a bunch of cynical and power-crazed lefties. Gordon Brown is a huge fan of the 'State' - and look where he got us.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Spectre on December 20, 2010, 06:06:27 pm
I would say only one party is working for this country to be equitable and fair.

Who would that be then? Because social mobility and the gap between rich and poor was worse at the time Labour were booted out early this year than it was when Blair hoodwinked everyone back in 1997.

The previous Government may have made mistakes but at least they left the State relatively intact.




Despite the pretence, the 'State' is a tool by which Labour and the left seek to control and, ultimately, own the lives of the individual. The State cannot, and will not, ever know how to spend my money and shape my life better than I will myself - more to the point, I don't want it to try to. Mainly because the 'State' isn't some benevolent force, it's generally just a bunch of cynical and power-crazed lefties. Gordon Brown is a huge fan of the 'State' - and look where he got us.



And the grocers daughter ?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 06:32:11 pm
And the grocers daughter ?

Everything's Thacher's fault. If only she hadn't insisted on invading Poland in 1939 there'd have never been any climate change at all.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 20, 2010, 06:45:18 pm
I would say only one party is working for this country to be equitable and fair.

Who would that be then? Because social mobility and the gap between rich and poor was worse at the time Labour were booted out early this year than it was when Blair hoodwinked everyone back in 1997.

The graph shows how public spending doubled under Labour was that all bad? In this country do we have social mobility, because our health costs and care services are met by the taxpayer?
http://wheredoesmymoneygo.org/dashboard/#/functionSpending=actual&longTermSpending=actual&view=long-term (http://wheredoesmymoneygo.org/dashboard/#/functionSpending=actual&longTermSpending=actual&view=long-term)
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 07:05:40 pm
The graph shows how public spending doubled under Labour was that all bad?

This highlights precisely the fundamental mistake that Labour made. You can spend as much of other people's money and borrow as much money as you like, if it doesn't provide comensurate results in improved services, it's all just one big waste.

The fact is that they spent all that money, emptied the accounts in fact, and yet social mobility has got worse. Labour's answer to everything was to simply chuck more money, that we didn't have, at it in the hope that things might somehow suddenly get better. It didn't work.

Quote
10 March 2010

OECD: UK has worse social mobility record than other developed countries

The chances of a child from a poor family enjoying higher wages and better education than their parents is lower in Britain than in other western countries, the OECD says

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/10/oecd-uk-worst-social-mobility (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/10/oecd-uk-worst-social-mobility)

Quote
In this country do we have social mobility, because our health costs and care services are met by the taxpayer?

Yes, but it's worse than just about any other western nation, despite us being one of the richest. Labour failed:

Quote
January 27, 2010

New Labour’s failure to deliver on social mobility should be a warning to all parties.

Social mobility is a term that everyone supports and few people understand. All three political parties are committed to it, each believing it fits their ideals. And yet they all prefer to ignore the deeper question: is influencing social mobility within the power of governments in the first place?

The report of the National Equality Panel, which is published today, shows the British divide between rich and poor is wider than at any time since the Second World War. It concludes that Britain remains a nation riven by class “from cradle to grave”, despite programmes costing billions of pounds designed to narrow the gap. Instead, the class divide now opens up when children are just 3 years old.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article7003720.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article7003720.ece)

The facts are there - and they don't make for pleasant reading. If that's what Labour were 'working' for throughout an entire 13 year period, much of which was during times of unparallelled economic wealth, then it seems hard to believe they're really an organisation that's striving to assist the least advantaged.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 20, 2010, 07:10:47 pm
Thatcher & Major Failed, Blair&  Brown Failed and Cameron & Clegg will they fail as well?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 20, 2010, 07:10:52 pm
Quote
Quote from: bobwright on Today at 05:31:21 PM

    I would say only one party is working for this country to be equitable and fair.


Who would that be then? Because social mobility and the gap between rich and poor was worse at the time Labour were booted out early this year than it was when Blair hoodwinked everyone back in 1997.

Quote from: bobwright on Today at 05:31:21 PM

    The previous Government may have made mistakes but at least they left the State relatively intact.


Despite the pretence, the 'State' is a tool by which Labour and the left seek to control and, ultimately, own the lives of the individual. The State cannot, and will not, ever know how to spend my money and shape my life better than I will myself - more to the point, I don't want it to try to. Mainly because the 'State' isn't some benevolent force, it's generally just a bunch of cynical and power-crazed lefties. Gordon Brown is a huge fan of the 'State' - and look where he got us.

hang on to your hat 20, I agree with everything you've just said...

Except...

Quote
the 'State' isn't some benevolent force, it's generally just a bunch of cynical and power-crazed lefties.

... you had to go and spoil it all by being partisan and polarised again. The State (and its jackbooted servants) was alive and well under 15 years of Tory power. Criminal Justice Bill, Poll Tax (if you think about it!) etc etc etc.

The State is seen as the means by which politicians impose their will upon the people. End of. What we should be doing as a populace is reclaiming the state for ourselves.

Quote
I do not think the Labour Party would say that they got it all right over the last 13 years. I would also say no one political party has all the answers. I would say only one party is working for this country to be equitable and fair. The others seem to be more about power and who should have it, that includes bringing back power from Europe.

Except Bob, political parties fall upon the swords of their own doctrine. Its why they only ever admit that 'they made some mistakes' AFTER they fall from power. If Labour was the only party about fairness and equality, then I wouldn't have expected to see so many prominent Labour politicians sending their kids to public school - would you? Anyone for tuition fees? Or does equality only apply to everyone else?

Labour did increase public spending in many areas which have been welcomed by many of the population - but then they went on to presuming they could pry and interfer with all sorts of aspects of peoples lives which went far beyond 'fair' and took us very close to a nearly Orwellian world of literal thought crimes. We haven't forgotten the total overreaction of the anti terror legislation, or the sinister idiocy of the NIR and ID cards or a war which was sold to the public on a totally false premise. Nothing fair or equitable about those mistakes - and until the party has been purged of all of those who were willingly complicit with those appalling policies and decisions, I don't think Labour have any credibility claiming any moral superiority.

Reading to you two trade examples of previous failing only reminds most of us of the corrupting failure of the established political parties. The age of poltical dogma is coming to a close. The electorate are sick of it.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 07:20:48 pm
... you had to go and spoil it all by being partisan and polarised again. The State (and its jackbooted servants) was alive and well under 15 years of Tory power. Criminal Justice Bill, Poll Tax (if you think about it!) etc etc etc.

The State is seen as the means by which politicians impose their will upon the people. End of. What we should be doing as a populace is reclaiming the state for ourselves.

And in return... yes, I'm in agreement with you. It's true that the Tories also use the 'State' mechanism to help achieve their aims. It's one reason why the idea of a 'State' should be dismantled (along with the State itself). However, it can't be denied that the Labour/Left notion of the State is far more wide-reaching and, some might say, universal - if they got their way. It's much easier to control everyone if they work for the government or are on benefits or depend on the State for their healthcare and pension, for example.

These are all our lives, why are people so ready and willing to hand over all control over them to people who don't even know, let alone give a shit about, them? I have done everything I possibly can to disassociate myself from the State and the State's control/influence. If only everyone strived to do that same, but the problem is that, for some people, it's just so much easier to give in and have the State be their master. The only reason I mentioned Labour initially is because they insidiously claim it's somewhat noble to be a slave to the State. This is why I distrust their use of the term 'the poor and most vulnerable', because it's that very demographic that Labour feed off of and use to their own ends.

It's the main reason why I despise the Welfare State. Far from protecting and looking after people, on an intrinsic level it claims their souls and ruins their lives. It's no better than a lifelong heroin addiction for some.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 20, 2010, 07:21:05 pm
I think every government does somethings good and somethings bad, as in politics you can't please everyone.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 20, 2010, 07:46:54 pm
Quote
It's the main reason why I despise the Welfare State. Far from protecting and looking after people, on an intrinsic level it claims their souls and ruins their lives. It's no better than a lifelong heroin addiction for some.

But if the best you can do to offer an alternative is to cite the States healthcare system, you haven't yet managed to point to an example which most reasonable, rational (and INFORMED) people would think preferable.

There is much good about the welfare state. Just as much as there are apologists for it, there are also many highly influential people (certain papers ownde by certain media moguls, for example) who never miss an opportunity to do it down - to such an extent that thinking that its crap has become the received wisdom amongst many. However, my father has received care recently which was excellent - and I know of a couple of TS regular contributors who've also had very positive experiences in recent times. Again, its down to a proper and balanced assessment of the good and bad rather than a polarised view based on political dogma.

However bad the five 'Ps' are in Swindon - any one of them is a positive paradise to the poor areas of any large American city. That fact is down largely to the welfare state. If you'd like to see the creation of real ghettos full of the hopelessly poor, then your philosophy and creed will take us there. Personally, I think that whatever the inadiquacies of our current system, its a lot better than the glibest alternatives.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Martin Wicks on December 20, 2010, 07:53:32 pm
I'm curious 20Eyes. If you think the state should be 'dismantled' who would do the things that private enterprise does not want to do because it is not profitable. For instance - just one example - private business likes doing straight forward things like hip replacements, but its not interested in dealing with people with chronic diseases - there's no profit in it.

Should motorists pay the full cost of building roads if the state does not subsidise them as it currently does?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 08:15:31 pm
Should motorists pay the full cost of building roads if the state does not subsidise them as it currently does?

Er, the tax revenue derived from motorists is directed AWAY from the travel network, motorists subsidise the treasury. It would be much cheaper for motorists to pay private companies to maintain roads - especially as our governments refuse to build new ones.

From

As the Labour Exchequer Secretary, Angela Eagle MP, said in 2009:

Quote
I do not think we have ever tried to pretend that motoring taxes should merely be used to cover the costs of providing the road infrastructure. They do contribute to our general revenue-raising capacity.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmtran/103/10303.htm (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmtran/103/10303.htm)

And she wasn't joking:

Quote
The total tax take from Britain's road users has risen to £45.9bn, but government spending on road capacity is a mere £4bn. Including maintenance, signage, lighting and so on, total road spending still only reaches £8.4bn.

http://www.publicservice.co.uk/feature_story.asp?id=11334 (http://www.publicservice.co.uk/feature_story.asp?id=11334)

So, a private company could provide all (and more) than the State does for the roads for at least 5 times less money. Hmm.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 08:25:33 pm
But if the best you can do to offer an alternative is to cite the States healthcare system, you haven't yet managed to point to an example which most reasonable, rational (and INFORMED) people would think preferable.

With specific regard to the NHS, the Bismarck system of funding universal health care has been proven, time and again, to work better. No serious commentator has ever even tried to deny it. So, why aren't we using it? There's only one reason, that I can think of, and it has nothing to do with health care.

There is much good about the welfare state. Just as much as there are apologists for it, there are also many highly influential people (certain papers ownde by certain media moguls, for example) who never miss an opportunity to do it down - to such an extent that thinking that its crap has become the received wisdom amongst many. However, my father has received care recently which was excellent - and I know of a couple of TS regular contributors who've also had very positive experiences in recent times. Again, its down to a proper and balanced assessment of the good and bad rather than a polarised view based on political dogma.

I once had good care from the NHS. I once also had shockingly poor care from the NHS. So what? It doesn't mean or prove anything. It really annoys me when people say, 'My nan went to hospital and they cured her cold'... on a personal level, to them, that's really, really great - but it doesn't have any relation to whether the NHS is being funded and run to its best potential. Indeed, given the money that's pumped into it, of course we should all expect excellent treatment.

However bad the five 'Ps' are in Swindon - any one of them is a positive paradise to the poor areas of any large American city. That fact is down largely to the welfare state.

Having been to quite a few such places - once you've walked through the Tenderloin in San Francisco you tend to know what bad areas of the States are like - I can honestly say they're no better or worse than some areas of Swindon. You may find that hard to believe, but I've spent time in both and there are very few differences. In the US they may have the guns and crystal meth, but they're ever more common over here PLUS we have a knives problem that doesn't exist to nearly the same level in the States.

If you'd like to see the creation of real ghettos full of the hopelessly poor, then your philosophy and creed will take us there. Personally, I think that whatever the inadiquacies of our current system, its a lot better than the glibest alternatives.

Nah, let's not kid ourselves, we have the same bad areas, the same 'ghettos'. They might not quite be defined in quite such tight ethnical divides, but they're there. The problem we have is that the Welfare State encourages the numbers, it begats itself, it makes things worse over the long term. On the face of it, it seems the 'nice' and 'caring' route to take, ultimately it's anything but - that's another reason I dislike it so much. Anything so repulsive that's done with such a fake smile is fairly sickening to me.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Simon on December 20, 2010, 09:07:32 pm
Maybe I happened to see a number of what I considered left-leaning posts in a relatively short space of time, who knows?, but it was just an impression I got. I may not have expressed myself too well, as I hadn't intended to imply that the forum itself was actually intended to be left-leaning, simply that it appeared to me that many of the regular/frequent contributors were of that mindset. Naturally, I do realise that whenever a locally focussed site of this nature is related to a town with a Tory council (especially after a Tory general election win) it is likely to generate more anti-those in power comments - that's entirely reasonable and how these things usually work. I know that I've contributed far less to many (other) forums now that Labour have been banished.

Yes, I think that accounts for it. In the early days there was a lot of criticism of the labour government, from both left (that'll be me then  :santa_smiley: ) and right, particularly over the national identity register. Then the tory council started to fall out of favour over things like their plan to close Lower Shaw Farm, and more recently over the whole wifi thing. Now we've got a tory government too (some of them may be lib dems but I see very little lib dem in the policies that are coming out), and OMG they're doing some unpopular things, so naturally they're going to get an increased amount of flak.

I think you'll find of the 'old school' long term posters, only Simon would readily state that he was left leaning.

I suggest you bother to have a read through TS. You'll find plenty of strong criticism of Labour policy and doctrine. In fact, until recently, Labour councillors refused to engage on TS because they thought it was a hotbed of right wing activists.

 :agreed:

Despite the pretence, the 'State' is a tool by which Labour and the left seek to control and, ultimately, own the lives of the individual. The State cannot, and will not, ever know how to spend my money and shape my life better than I will myself - more to the point, I don't want it to try to. Mainly because the 'State' isn't some benevolent force, it's generally just a bunch of cynical and power-crazed lefties. Gordon Brown is a huge fan of the 'State' - and look where he got us.

The state is whatever the government makes of it. On a bad day it's telling us we need to be indexed in a massive database of all citizens subjects and that we can't have a fag in the pub. On a good day it's looking after those who have fallen on hard times, educating our kids to the best of their ability and treating the ill and infirm without regard to their credit rating.

The state in itself is not a bad thing, any more than electricity is. It's the uses that it's put to that we need to worry about.

And the grocers daughter ?

Everything's Thacher's fault. If only she hadn't insisted on invading Poland in 1939 there'd have never been any climate change at all.

I'm sure that comment was made with tongue firmly in cheek. But wasn't Thatcher once asked what she thought her greatest achievement was? And didn't she answer "Tony Blair"?

Labour did increase public spending in many areas which have been welcomed by many of the population - but then they went on to presuming they could pry and interfer with all sorts of aspects of peoples lives which went far beyond 'fair' and took us very close to a nearly Orwellian world of literal thought crimes. We haven't forgotten the total overreaction of the anti terror legislation, or the sinister idiocy of the NIR and ID cards or a war which was sold to the public on a totally false premise. Nothing fair or equitable about those mistakes - and until the party has been purged of all of those who were willingly complicit with those appalling policies and decisions, I don't think Labour have any credibility claiming any moral superiority.

 :agreed:

(Stoppit Tobes, it can't be healthy for us to keep agreeing about things  :santa_grin: )

Quote
The total tax take from Britain's road users has risen to £45.9bn, but government spending on road capacity is a mere £4bn. Including maintenance, signage, lighting and so on, total road spending still only reaches £8.4bn.

http://www.publicservice.co.uk/feature_story.asp?id=11334 (http://www.publicservice.co.uk/feature_story.asp?id=11334)

So, a private company could provide all (and more) than the State does for the roads for at least 5 times less money. Hmm.

I was just about to hit the "post" button and you came up with something else  :bottom:

So you believe that the tax revenue from road users should be spent purely on roads?

I suggest that that's a short sighted view, and that transport needs to be considered as a whole. Including things like the impact people's transport choices have on other areas of the public sector. Like whether people have a viable (and lower carbon) alternative to the car, which won't cost them an arm and a leg and a whole lot of lost time? Like the number of instances of asthma and other respiratory complaints the NHS deals with as a result of increasing pollution in our town centres?

I put it to the good people of TS that it is right and proper for some of the tax raised from car use to be put towards alternative transport options, like affordable, reliable and regular bus and train services.

A private service provider won't do that, they'll just build and expand more roads and neglect the alternatives, causing more and more people to choose the car as the only practical option, in turn driving further road expansion, and before you know it there's tarmac everywhere and it's gridlocked with cars which can't reach their destination because of all the other cars which also can't reach their destination.

And the directors of said service provider get to walk away with astronomical salaries and bonuses, not because they've improved the ability of the ordinary person to get from A to B, but because their shareholders are a bit richer.

And that is why private companies should not provide public services. The point of private companies is to maximise the return to their shareholders. The point of public services is to provide a service to the public.

A clear conflict of interest I think.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 20, 2010, 09:27:46 pm
I volunteer to pay the tax associated with running my car, if I did not I would simply not have a car and save all that money. I would prefer it if the government spent 50% of it on railway improvements, but they don't.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 09:32:50 pm
So you believe that the tax revenue from road users should be spent purely on roads?

Not necessarily, although it the inequality between what's taken from motorists/derived from road use and what's spent on the road network does seem too great.

My real point was that Martin Wicks made the claim:

Quote
Should motorists pay the full cost of building roads if the state does not subsidise them as it currently does?

This implied that motorists don't already pay the full cost of building roads whilst also being forced to cough up a further £37.5 Billion to fund the governments other spending whims.

The ultimate point being that a private company could charge at least 5 times less to the individual motorist and still provide the same road network related services to the motorists that have been charged.

The problem with organisations that only exist to provide a service to the public is that the service can be as inefficient and expensive as it likes and still deliver mediocre results and there's nothing anyone can do about it, because people still demand the service to exist, so they put up with it being expensive and shit.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 09:34:06 pm
I volunteer to pay the tax associated with running my car, if I did not I would simply not have a car and save all that money. I would prefer it if the government spent 50% of it on railway improvements, but they don't.

Some people have no choice but to run a car, I'm afraid. My elderly mother would be forced to move from the house she's lived in for 30 years if she lost the use of her car.

Nobody 'volunteers' to pay tax. Tax is theft... and nobody asks to get mugged.

Although, thanks for contributing additional funds to the coalition Treasury, Steve. If you're volunteering to do so, you clearly must think they'll spend it wisely.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 20, 2010, 09:34:52 pm
Quote
I once had good care from the NHS. I once also had shockingly poor care from the NHS. So what? It doesn't mean or prove anything. It really annoys me when people say, 'My nan went to hospital and they cured her cold'... on a personal level, to them, that's really, really great - but it doesn't have any relation to whether the NHS is being funded and run to its best potential. Indeed, given the money that's pumped into it, of course we should all expect excellent treatment.

Quote from: Tobes on Today at 07:46:54 PM

    However bad the five 'Ps' are in Swindon - any one of them is a positive paradise to the poor areas of any large American city. That fact is down largely to the welfare state.


Having been to quite a few such places - once you've walked through the Tenderloin in San Francisco you tend to know what bad areas of the States are like - I can honestly say they're no better or worse than some areas of Swindon. You may find that hard to believe, but I've spent time in both and there are very few differences. In the US they may have the guns and crystal meth, but they're ever more common over here PLUS we have a knives problem that doesn't exist to nearly the same level in the States.

 :santa_azn: Am I alone in spotting the sweet irony of those juxtaposed quotes?!

Quote
Nah, let's not kid ourselves, we have the same bad areas, the same 'ghettos'. They might not quite be defined in quite such tight ethnical divides, but they're there.

You're not seriously saying that they bare comparison are you? (please note, I lived in Washington DC for a while). The 'same' bad areas? Are you trying to compare our totally over-blown 'knife' problem to the levels of homicide in the states??! No disrespect to those effected by it, but comparing our 'problem' with knife crime to murder rates in the states is like comparing the boy scouts to a paramilitary organisation...
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 20, 2010, 09:37:52 pm
I think you are tobes....I'm not really paying attention anymore, you know when someone drones on at you and your eyes gloss over like a glazed doughnut ooooo doughnut.....
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 20, 2010, 09:45:45 pm
:santa_azn: Am I alone in spotting the sweet irony of those juxtaposed quotes?!

I think I see what you're getting at, but if I'm right, it's not really the same thing.

Using my two examples, given the money that's pumped in to the 'Five Ps' by the government/Welfare State, it *should* result in better/more pleasant areas than those that are left to rot in the States... but it doesn't appear to.

Just as the money that's pumped into the NHS should (and could) mean it delivers nothing but excellent health care, yet we know (and the independent evidence and research tells us) it doesn't.

In short, simply throwing billions upon billions of public money at problems doesn't always make them go away. If we learn nothing else from the failed New Labour project, we must surely at least remember this. At some point we have to start questioning a better way forward, especially now that we no longer have any money to chuck at these things.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: bobwright on December 21, 2010, 01:09:55 am
To quote - 'I don't think Labour have any credibility claiming any moral superiority.'

There is a danger that some politicians will fall into the 'Vanity' trap. Starting to believe their own publicity or trying to create false positive images of their activity. There is also great danger that when taking a stance you may be perceived as taking a moral stance.

A Conservative friend of mine said there is only one way to get people to accept you are doing good things and that is by doing good things. While this advise doesn't guarentee a good reputation I prefer it to using public money to convey only a positive image within establishment publications. In truth we do not live in the perfect world, to airbrush away reality is just treating the public as idiots. I prefer the 'more to do', 'lessons to learn', 'this is where we are' approach. The positives will come out of 'this is how far we have progressed'.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 21, 2010, 01:42:33 am
Quote
I think you are tobes....I'm not really paying attention anymore, you know when someone drones on at you and your eyes gloss over like a glazed doughnut ooooo doughnut.....

(http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/content/pictures/homer/HomerSimpson15.gif)

He just needs some thick black hair...
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 08:11:06 am
You make some very good points here:

Starting to believe their own publicity or trying to create false positive images of their activity.

I feel this is one of the many areas where New Labour got things so wrong. So many policies were unpopular and essentially not good, yet they were spun as being 'good'. Nobody can deny that New Labour, under the auspices of A Campbell and Mandelson, elevated the art of spin to Olympic levels - and you only need spin when you're trying to create false positives of your activity, otherwise, you just simply tell the truth.

There is also great danger that when taking a stance you may be perceived as taking a moral stance.

In truth we do not live in the perfect world, to airbrush away reality is just treating the public as idiots.

Again, this is something I firmly believe to be the case, but which New Labour tried to do in spades. Essentially, what we're talking about here comes under the banner of 'political correctness' (ie, not what you really think, or would do, but a publically expressed opinion that you've been told is 'acceptable' at the prevailing moment). Again, New Labour took the political correctness concept to new levels - which is why we're now seeing it fall apart so dramatically and quickly - such pretence is unsustainable, especially when the going gets a bit tougher.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Simon on December 21, 2010, 08:28:37 am
The problem with organisations that only exist to provide a service to the public is that the service can be as inefficient and expensive as it likes and still deliver mediocre results and there's nothing anyone can do about it, because people still demand the service to exist, so they put up with it being expensive and shit.

And the problem with organisations that only exist to enrich their shareholders is that they can be as inefficient and expensive as they like and still deliver mediocre results and there's nothing anyone can do about it as long as long as the shareholders are still coining it in.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 08:36:28 am
And the problem with organisations that only exist to enrich their shareholders is that they can be as inefficient and expensive as they like and still deliver mediocre results and there's nothing anyone can do about it as long as long as the shareholders are still coining it in.

If a private company is as inefficient and expensive as they like and delivers mediocre results, how are their shareholders going to 'coin it in'? Unless they're an unassailable monopoly, it's just not possible to sustain.

That's the great thing about private companies, somebody will always come along and try to do it better (and make more money for their shareholders) if they see an opportunity. With State funded services, all that's ever done is that tax is increased to plug the holes.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 21, 2010, 09:27:07 am
I think the best example of the private sector is the banks and who was it that bailed them out? Lot of holes plugged there by the public sector.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 21, 2010, 12:09:11 pm
Yes - Ringer's example rather clearly buggers your assertion 20...

The concept of unmitigated greed as the prime directive for 'success' is as outmoded as the assertion that dictatorial central conrol is best. Like I keep saying, stop being so partisan and think - just because one system is wrong doesn't mean that the diametrically opposed opposite must be true.

That, if anything, is the thing the electorate have learned after 3 of blue and three of red - they all lie, they all overclaim, they all spin and they all suffer from their slavish addiction to dogma.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 21, 2010, 12:11:22 pm
Quote
That's the great thing about private companies, somebody will always come along and try to do it better (and make more money for their shareholders) if they see an opportunity. With State funded services, all that's ever done is that tax is increased to plug the holes.

Except private companies with shareholders to answer to ONLY care about what the shareholders want - which is ever increasing growth and ever increasing returns. Mixing private with public and state services is VERY dangerous for absolutely bloody obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 21, 2010, 12:13:38 pm
Which reasons tobes? I'm feeling thick
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: PAV on December 21, 2010, 12:32:33 pm
[Except private companies with shareholders to answer to ONLY care about what the shareholders want - which is ever increasing growth and ever increasing returns. Mixing private with public and state services is VERY dangerous for absolutely bloody obvious reasons.
Private companies also have to manage their customer, because if they provide bad service the customers will simply move to a difference company.

This is not something that customers of the NHS, schools, council etc can do.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 12:33:49 pm
Yes - Ringer's example rather clearly buggers your assertion 20...

Not at all. It was the State/public sector that decided to rescue the failed banks (they didn't ALL fail) and many view the reasons for doing so as politically motivated as much as anything to do with the economy. Look at the banks that failed, looks where they're based and where they offered employment.

Ringer's point would have some relevance were it not for the fact that all it did was point out that Private companies can go bust. It was Brown's decision to recapitalise and save them, Labour were more than happy to point out that the Tories would have 'done nothing', hence it's not a true world comparison.

There are many examples of Private companies that go bust where the government doesn't intervene.

Except private companies with shareholders to answer to ONLY care about what the shareholders want - which is ever increasing growth and ever increasing returns. Mixing private with public and state services is VERY dangerous for absolutely bloody obvious reasons.

Agreed. But you need to consider HOW Private companies go about ever increasing growth and increasing returns. For the most part, it's not achieved by providing an expensive service that's inefficient and worse than all the alternatives. We have the public sector for that.

I agree with your second part also - keep the State well out of Private companies. In fact, keep the State out of everything, please.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 12:36:01 pm
[Except private companies with shareholders to answer to ONLY care about what the shareholders want - which is ever increasing growth and ever increasing returns. Mixing private with public and state services is VERY dangerous for absolutely bloody obvious reasons.
Private companies also have to manage their customer, because if they provide bad service the customers will simply move to a difference company.

This is not something that customers of the NHS, schools, council etc can do.

Precisely. It's crazy to think that Private companies solely think of their Shareholders and not their customers. In any half-decent company with any chance of success, they have to focus solely on their customer in order to ultimately satisfy their shareholders.

The Public sector can provide as shit a service as it likes - the only think the people paying for it can do is keep on paying for it, forced to by law.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 21, 2010, 12:43:38 pm
Mellon - I thought you were scoffing glazed donuts?!

Because profit does not often equate to 'care'. Put simply, there is no profit in helping someone who can't pay. There is no profit in doing something unless there's a return in cash. There is no profit in doing something because it is 'good' or for any other morally defined reason alone, unless there is a defined bottom-line reward for the shareholders. Profit is the god which private companies pursue.

Quote
Not at all. It was the State/public sector that decided to rescue the failed banks (they didn't ALL fail) and many view the reasons for doing so as politically motivated as much as anything to do with the economy. Look at the banks that failed, looks where they're based and where they offered employment.

Yes - a failure which began in the cradle of your ideals - the good ol' U-S of A, home of the free and of unmitigated greed. Kinda proves the point.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 12:52:54 pm
Because profit does not often equate to 'care'. Put simply, there is no profit in helping someone who can't pay. There is no profit in doing something unless there's a return in cash. There is no profit in doing something because it is 'good' or for any other morally defined reason alone, unless there is a defined bottom-line reward for the shareholders. Profit is the god which private companies pursue.

Nobody is going to deny that (most) private companies are in it to make money. However, especially these days, the way to go about maximising the money you make has changed. Look at how ALL the big companies endlessly push their 'green' credentials - it has to be seen to be done, even though I suspect more customers resent the knowledge that they're paying more for their service/product to fund such things than the number of customers that they gain/are impressed by it.

The fact is that 'ethical' and 'environmental' are just about the two biggest moneyspinners around at the moment, because, after all, whatever people really think, who's ever going to stand up in public and state that they choose to use the companies who aren't ethical and environmental?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 21, 2010, 01:06:22 pm
The fact is that the public sector stepped in and saved the banks and the banks said thank you as they took the money. The shareholders were not best pleased and have paid the price so far for that. Everyone recogniseses that the public sector saved the banks to say they did not is to argue into a circle.

Private companies do go bust and the government does not step in, I think Rolls Royce was the last example a Tory government saved it. We must not forget that government intervention can create an industry as they did with Inmos otherwise there would have been no British chip production in the UK.  The government pays out billions in research grants, because private companies do not.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 21, 2010, 01:20:10 pm
Quote
However, especially these days, the way to go about maximising the money you make has changed. Look at how ALL the big companies endlessly push their 'green' credentials - it has to be seen to be done, even though I suspect more customers resent the knowledge that they're paying more for their service/product to fund such things than the number of customers that they gain/are impressed by it.

The fact is that 'ethical' and 'environmental' are just about the two biggest moneyspinners around at the moment, because, after all, whatever people really think, who's ever going to stand up in public and state that they choose to use the companies who aren't ethical and environmental?

Key word - 'moneyspinners'. They don't do it because they believe in it per se - they call it 'cause marketing' - they only for the duration it gives them a measurable return on the bottom line. Its hypocritical, short term and amoral. EG: I worked for a bunch of utter corporate hypocrites who announced one day that they were restricting car parking form 'environmental reasons' and to encourage people to go to work on bike or bus... but ALL of the directors (to a man) constinued to come into work in 4 litre Bentleys, Range Rovers and Maseratis (to park in the newly cleared spaces). As for companies doing what their customers want, its mostly smoke, mirros and lies. For every ethical lie sold, they usually render it pointless by an obvious contradiction.

Money and high capitalism corrupts. Its a system which motivates - but it needs management - and there also needs to be a system which picks up those who fall through its selfish fingers.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 01:27:39 pm
The fact is that the public sector stepped in and saved the banks and the banks said thank you as they took the money. The shareholders were not best pleased and have paid the price so far for that. Everyone recogniseses that the public sector saved the banks to say they did not is to argue into a circle.

I'm confused. I said that the State did save the banks  :santa_huh:

Private companies do go bust and the government does not step in, I think Rolls Royce was the last example a Tory government saved it. We must not forget that government intervention can create an industry as they did with Inmos otherwise there would have been no British chip production in the UK.  The government pays out billions in research grants, because private companies do not.

That's a real Catch-22.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 01:35:44 pm
Key word - 'moneyspinners'. They don't do it because they believe in it per se - they call it 'cause marketing' - they only for the duration it gives them a measurable return on the bottom line.

This smells like the Labour pre-election promise of them making cuts through tear-stained faces while the Tory (the same) cuts would be done while they rub their hands with glee. A cut is a cut. Being ethical and helping the environment is just that - it's only your personal perception that influences how you view it.

If people do good things, I really don't care very much why they do them, they're still doing good things.

It's like the people who say that Mother Theresa's motivation for her work was because it made her feel good about herself. Would it have been better if she'd been prevented from doing so?

Money and high capitalism corrupts. Its a system which motivates - but it needs management - and there also needs to be a system which picks up those who fall through its selfish fingers.

Capitalism is merely the closest economic model to human nature. Human nature itself isn't, at its core, overly pleasant, no matter how much we'd like to believe otherwise. Coincidentally (or maybe not), Capitalism is the only economic model we've yet come up with that has proven to work over the long-term, not perfectly (nothing is) of course, but better than any alternative.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 21, 2010, 02:06:02 pm
Mellon - I thought you were scoffing glazed donuts?!

nope........choccy digestives and a coffee :santa_cheesy:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 21, 2010, 02:20:05 pm
Quote
Capitalism is merely the closest economic model to human nature.

No it isn't. High capitalism - as opposed to a society in which it has its excesses reigned in by the state and by regulation - almost always (by definition!) ignores the concept of altruism. Without altruism, we are not a society, but a collective of utterly self centered and selfish individuals. Altruism is the glue which gives us some hope that *maybe* things will be sorted for the common good - not for the advantage of those lucky enough to be at the top of the tree. Altruism also gives us some hope that people will invest time and money into things which will benefit not simply us (or a CEO, politician or shareholder within the next three years) but our neighbours, those less fortunate than ourselves, and, god knows, maybe those who follow us in 10, 20 or 100 years time. Altruism is about doing something because it is right, NOT because there is a financial reward.

Just as the worst excesses of Labour revealed the failure of their doctrine, the arguments you're expounding are those which did for the Tories in the end. They are morally and literally bankrupt ideas.

To get back to the subject of the thread, farewell to dogma.

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 02:31:02 pm
Quote
Capitalism is merely the closest economic model to human nature.

No it isn't. High capitalism - as opposed to a society in which it has its excesses reigned in by the state and by regulation - almost always (by definition!) ignores the concept of altruism. Without altruism, we are not a society, but a collective of utterly self centered and selfish individuals. Altruism is the glue which gives us some hope that *maybe* things will be sorted for the common good - not for the advantage of those lucky enough to be at the top of the tree. Altruism also gives us some hope that people will invest time and money into things which will benefit not simply us (or a CEO, politician or shareholder within the next three years) but our neighbours, those less fortunate than ourselves, and, god knows, maybe those who follow us in 10, 20 or 100 years time. Altruism is about doing something because it is right, NOT because there is a financial reward.

There are sound arguments to suggest that true altruism doesn't actually exist, because, on some level the individual benefits to some degree.

Capitalism does include elements of altruism - it's laughably Socialist Workeresque to simply conclude that all Captialism is selfish and evil.

Or, maybe, all those selfish companies should stop being so selfish, close their doors and let all their employees go and work for less selfish organisations?

Just as the worst excesses of Labour revealed the failure of their doctrine, the arguments you're expounding are those which did for the Tories in the end. They are morally and literally bankrupt ideas.

That's just not true. Companies that work, work. Companies that don't, fold. It's really that simple. And, it's worth saying again, the banks didn't fail, some banks failed. Very few companies can go on forever, but one thing's for sure, Capitalism existed long before the Welfare State and it'll exist long after the Welfare State.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Spectre on December 21, 2010, 04:11:27 pm
Yes - Ringer's example rather clearly buggers your assertion 20...

The concept of unmitigated greed as the prime directive for 'success' is as outmoded as the assertion that dictatorial central conrol is best. Like I keep saying, stop being so partisan and think - just because one system is wrong doesn't mean that the diametrically opposed opposite must be true.

That, if anything, is the thing the electorate have learned after 3 of blue and three of red - they all lie, they all overclaim, they all spin and they all suffer from their slavish addiction to dogma.


 :agreed:Tobes, But, oh dear, surely you aren't advocating that there's a "third way" :santa_wink:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Chris Watts on December 21, 2010, 04:36:43 pm
Quote
Capitalism is merely the closest economic model to human nature.

No it isn't. High capitalism - as opposed to a society in which it has its excesses reigned in by the state and by regulation - almost always (by definition!) ignores the concept of altruism. Without altruism, we are not a society, but a collective of utterly self centered and selfish individuals. Altruism is the glue which gives us some hope that *maybe* things will be sorted for the common good - not for the advantage of those lucky enough to be at the top of the tree. Altruism also gives us some hope that people will invest time and money into things which will benefit not simply us (or a CEO, politician or shareholder within the next three years) but our neighbours, those less fortunate than ourselves, and, god knows, maybe those who follow us in 10, 20 or 100 years time. Altruism is about doing something because it is right, NOT because there is a financial reward.

Just as the worst excesses of Labour revealed the failure of their doctrine, the arguments you're expounding are those which did for the Tories in the end. They are morally and literally bankrupt ideas.

To get back to the subject of the thread, farewell to dogma.
I would have to agree that Capitalism is the closest thing to human nature. It is a hierarchy that is tribal in nature and origin. Those at the top of the tree will use all methods necessary to keep those at the bottom in their place in order to maintain their status and will push it as far as the incumbent society will let it.

Post war Northern Ireland is a case in point where capitalism was allowed to continue unchecked, un-equitably. You can strip away religion and nationalism / republicanism, loyalist-ism and you are left with

Top layer:  politicians / industrialist / Bankers / Buisnessmen (Barons)
Middle layer:  upper / middle management / Police etc (foot soldiers)
Bottom layer: and the workers (peasants / servants)

The top layer use the middle layer to keep the lower layer in their place. In the case of NI when the bottom layer decided that they wanted equal rights, better housing etc and started a civil rights movement, the top layer mobilised the middle layer to slap them down on their behalf. After all, it was in the interests of the middle layer of this society also to maintain their status quo. They went too far and a monster was created. This had little to do with religion or nationalism in the top layer psyche. These were just convenient tools used very effectively to manipulate the masses to do their will, until it caused an equal and opposite back-lash and escalation occurred.

Arguably, a strong socialist / trade union movement rooted in the bottom layer, at this time in NI, may have gone some way to reducing the poverty gap and therefore the need for extremism and violence.  Gerrymandering Stormont put pay to that ever happening and the path was set.

You can draw many parallels of this with the UK 70 years earlier at the tail end of the 19th century.

I see modern day socialism as a way of regulating capitalism. (or that is what it should be)
If Government does not regulate capitalism fairly, unrest will surely follow. The green shoots of this can be seen already with the students and the general feelings towards bankers and tax exiles.






 
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Chris Watts on December 21, 2010, 04:43:07 pm
A classic...

John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett: Class. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0DUsGSMwZY#)



Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 04:48:33 pm
I would have to agree that Capitalism is the closest thing to human nature. It is a hierarchy that is tribal in nature and origin. Those at the top of the tree will use all methods necessary to keep those at the bottom in their place in order to maintain their status and will push it as far as the incumbent society will let it.

Absolutely.

What's even more interesting is that Capitalism allows human nature to dictate what it wants/agrees with. In other words, people know that certain clothes shops cannot possible sell products at the price they do without somebody, somewhere being treated and paid in a certain manner. If they don't agree with that, they can pay more elsewhere - if the majority of people shun companies that employ what they perceive as bad practice, those companies either change their operation or go to the wall.

I suppose a prime example of this, in recent times, are Free Range eggs. Who would put their hand up today and admit to buying battery farmed chicken eggs (is it possible to even buy them anymore?)

We get what we ask for with Capitalism, that's kind of the whole point - if businesses don't provide what we want, they have no business.

Unlike State provided services/products, where we're told what we're getting (usually based on the prevailing political whims of those in office), are forced to pay an amount for it that we have no control over, regardless of how good or bad the service/product is, and that's the end of it.

It seems odd for those who view Capitalism as evil to dislike it when consumers decide to reward those companies that can demonstrate ethical and environmental credentials - surely if companies are being forced to do good things (and rewarded for it) it's better than them not going good things. To bitch about the motivation seems very much a case of cutting one's nose to spite one's face.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Chris Watts on December 21, 2010, 05:05:00 pm
We get what we ask for with Capitalism, that's kind of the whole point - if businesses don't provide what we want, they have no business.
We did not ask for the banking crisis...
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 21, 2010, 05:19:55 pm
We did not ask for the banking crisis...

Not directly, maybe.

But the banks didn't forge people's signatures.

Just because the bank allowed a one-man band painter & decorator to say he was on £60kpa so that he could buy the house his wife wanted (when he was actually on £25kpa) didn't mean the painter had to lie.

Just because the bank offered a £10k credit card limit to somebody earning £25kpa didn't mean that person had to spend it all.

Indirectly, yes, we did ask for the banking crisis. People were more than happy to turn a blind eye while the banks allowed them to live lifestyles that their actual earnings could never have bought for them.

Banks operate within society, they can only make (or lose) money from their customers. To imply that their customers had nothing to do with what happened is naive, at the very best.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Chris Watts on December 21, 2010, 05:42:39 pm
We did not ask for the banking crisis...

Not directly, maybe.

But the banks didn't forge people's signatures.

Just because the bank allowed a one-man band painter & decorator to say he was on £60kpa so that he could buy the house his wife wanted (when he was actually on £25kpa) didn't mean the painter had to lie.

Just because the bank offered a £10k credit card limit to somebody earning £25kpa didn't mean that person had to spend it all.

Indirectly, yes, we did ask for the banking crisis. People were more than happy to turn a blind eye while the banks allowed them to live lifestyles that their actual earnings could never have bought for them.

Banks operate within society, they can only make (or lose) money from their customers. To imply that their customers had nothing to do with what happened is naive, at the very best.
When I got a loan or a mortgage I had to produce wage slips and bank statements. The banks then decided if I was good for the loan. If they had since decided to forgo these basic checks and balances for the sake of expediency in the unfettered feeding frenzy of credit then that has got to be neglect on behalf of the bank sector.

I think that the root of the problem was the mortgage industry in the States. Fanny Doo-Da and Freddie Flintoff or something like that. The problem with the mortgage industry was that a broker would be paid on completion and perhaps would help secure mortgages with creative accounting in order to secure his 'not so well earned' coin. The industry allowed this on and industrial scale. The industry should have regulated this effectively.

As libertarian as it may sound, you can not let individuals financially regulate themselves on a global scale as to how much credit they think they can handle. Letting banks self regulate is bad enough.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Spectre on December 21, 2010, 05:59:27 pm
We did not ask for the banking crisis...

Not directly, maybe.

But the banks didn't forge people's signatures.

Just because the bank allowed a one-man band painter & decorator to say he was on £60kpa so that he could buy the house his wife wanted (when he was actually on £25kpa) didn't mean the painter had to lie.

Just because the bank offered a £10k credit card limit to somebody earning £25kpa didn't mean that person had to spend it all.

Indirectly, yes, we did ask for the banking crisis. People were more than happy to turn a blind eye while the banks allowed them to live lifestyles that their actual earnings could never have bought for them.

Banks operate within society, they can only make (or lose) money from their customers. To imply that their customers had nothing to do with what happened is naive, at the very best.

But, didn't the banks have a responsibility to ensure that their money was repayable? Not only for their benefit, after all a default on a repayment is a loss to them, but also a moral responsibility to the customer who, after all, is providing them with their finance through the interest charged.

The introduction of self certification of earnings to obtain morgages was the greatest error. It lead directly to the situations you quote above. The banks were falling over themselves to be the top lender and brokers were bending the rules to earn their commissions in true capitalist style.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: moley on December 21, 2010, 06:29:47 pm
The introduction of self certification of earnings to obtain morgages was the greatest error. It lead directly to the situations you quote above. The banks were falling over themselves to be the top lender and brokers were bending the rules to earn their commissions in true capitalist style.

Self certification of earnings was a reaction to another trend...

Increasing number of people end up on various types of short term or irregular incomes.  So looking at a load of wage slips from an employer doesn't work for them (and getting rid of self certification reintroduces a problem).  There are some good examples of groups of people who have problems in this area who could genuinely pay their mortgages (e.g. IT contractors).  The problem comes when people lie (which unfortunately is the way of the world).  So either there needs to be a mechanism in place to punish the liars (random very detailed checks of some mortgage applicants with heavy credit penalties if you're caught out??) or surely for people applying for self certified mortgages it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for (say) a year's worth of bank statements.  (it's much harder to give the impression of a higher income than you have over this period).

When I applied for my first mortgage, I was asked to account for a large payment I'd made shortly before taking the mortgage out (they were clearly curious to see if it was a regular or one-off payment) and I got the impression they were far more interested then about whether I could afford to pay the mortgage back than when we took our current mortgage out (adviser was surprised we didn't want to borrow more money!!)

Moley
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: James on December 21, 2010, 07:32:43 pm
The basic problem was not with the people who were getting the loans.
The problem was with the way banks were reselling bundled mortgages as assets to other banks (collatoralised debt obligations, CDOs and others).
This opportunity to resell increased the value of a mortgage to the issuing bank.
Once a mortgage was worth more than a mortgage was worth (?), it was worth taking a little risk. "House prices always go up, why not stretch your borrowing?" "You'll get a promotion before the end of your fixed rate", and anything else to persuade people to borrow too much money.
This works well in a rising market, but the value of the mortgage assets is dependant on the underlying asset (houses) maintaining it's value.
As soon as house prices peaked, the values started to drop.
CDOs which were triple a rated, suddenly became rather riskier with the falls in house values putting more and more pressure on them. These have now become the toxic debt which governments have been attempting to deal with.

The driver was bank profit now, not sensible lending.
You have got to love the way a badly regulated free market works.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 21, 2010, 08:41:37 pm
Looking back we can see what happened but looking forward will we leave the European Market which I am never sure is not a social economy with all its socialist countries. Socialism by command economy is nothing to shout about and capitalism with several state controlled banks is nothing to shout about either, the banking crisis demonstrates that the market does not work perfectly. Thatcher it is claimed  believed the market was the panacea, Stalin and the Soviets and East Germany believed the command economy was the panacea. Mao had a cultural revolution, that flattened the market in his country.

China mixes the two of them state control and capitalism and at the moment is doing very well, what concerns me, is if it wobbles the  impact on the US economy  will have consequences for us.  I recall Thatcher telling parliament in 1988  “There is no way in which one can buck the market”  Thatcher was clear. Market economies whether capitalist or command economies cannot simply avoid the effects of spending more money than they earn as they run out of money making savings and cuts follow. However despite her insight we to this day remain in the stilted market place of the EU.

For example Europe needed the UK for its armed forces, now that Cameron is ensuring that they are being cut beyond the pale, will the EU be prepared  to bid us farewell and have a Mediterranean based market/group as Sarkozy mooted in 2007? Perhaps that is why Cameron's cuts are too deep and too fast? I believe that Cameron's cut are a back door way out of Europe. Here is his  manifesto http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Where_we_stand/Europe.aspx (http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Where_we_stand/Europe.aspx)

This survey is worth a looking at  s it demonstrates that Britons don't want to be in that market place see Page 95/96: Question: Generally speaking, do you think that (OUR COUNTRY)’s membership of the European Union is A good thing? [In 7 countries, less than half the citizens believe that their country has benefitted from EU membership.] The UK i (34%, -2 points since January-February 2009),

[/b] http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb71/eb71_std_part1.pdf (http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb71/eb71_std_part1.pdf)

As only a third think membership  is a good thing, it is likely to be the explanation as to why Cameron has gone into a military treaty with France to stop them having a reason for Britain to remain in Europe.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: moley on December 21, 2010, 08:47:38 pm
There's another interesting one out of all of this...

if you take Heathrow as an interesting private enterprise, it is effectively almost a monopoly.  Because of planning regulations, it's very, very difficult to set up or expand another airport to the level which it has (there are very few airports in this country capable of taking an A380 for example).  So without suitable regulation (to counter their monopoly position) there's nothing to stop the airport's owners from just treating it as a cash cow - they may lose some transit traffic, but as the airport is full, this would probably be happily taken by other routes anyway.

Same with many utilities - they are always going to be monopolies and it is very difficult to introduce real competition in an acceptable way to people to major infrastructure.. (you only need to look at the furore about the fast rail link to see the issues, or new power stations etc).

So how can you make pure capitalism work in such projects?

(In China they have solved this problem, but their solution would be viewed as unacceptable here...)

Moley
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Simon on December 21, 2010, 09:52:52 pm
The basic problem was not with the people who were getting the loans.
The problem was with the way banks were reselling bundled mortgages as assets to other banks (collatoralised debt obligations, CDOs and others).
This opportunity to resell increased the value of a mortgage to the issuing bank.
Once a mortgage was worth more than a mortgage was worth (?), it was worth taking a little risk. "House prices always go up, why not stretch your borrowing?" "You'll get a promotion before the end of your fixed rate", and anything else to persuade people to borrow too much money.
This works well in a rising market, but the value of the mortgage assets is dependant on the underlying asset (houses) maintaining it's value.
As soon as house prices peaked, the values started to drop.
CDOs which were triple a rated, suddenly became rather riskier with the falls in house values putting more and more pressure on them. These have now become the toxic debt which governments have been attempting to deal with.

The driver was bank profit now, not sensible lending.
You have got to love the way a badly regulated free market works.

Well said James  :santa_afro: I concur that the root cause of the problem was the way that some slightly dodgy mortgages were packaged up and sold off and repackaged and resold and repeat ad infinitum until suddenly in 2008 lots of people who thought they had bought safe investments found that what they actually had was an investment with a return rate of less than 100%. And at what point did this process of repackaging and reselling benefit society at large (even when it was working) in the way that, say, manufacturing actual real things and trading them does?

It didn't. It only benefited the brokers and traders who did the repackaging and reselling. It did diddly squat all for the rest of us, other than a reduction in public services to pay for the bailouts to the banks who got tangled up in such stupid activities.

This, for me, is a prime example of why capitalism doesn't work.

But, didn't the banks have a responsibility to ensure that their money was repayable? Not only for their benefit, after all a default on a repayment is a loss to them, but also a moral responsibility to the customer who, after all, is providing them with their finance through the interest charged.

Absolutely!

I suppose a prime example of this, in recent times, are Free Range eggs. Who would put their hand up today and admit to buying battery farmed chicken eggs (is it possible to even buy them anymore?)

Yes, they're still available, albeit under more palatable descriptions ("eggs from caged hens" etc). And I bet the people who will admit to buying them are outnumbered by the people who actually buy them. I only buy eggs with the Soil Association logo because I'm very sceptical about the welfare standards involved in the production of eggs under some other schemes. But I'm lucky in that I'm able to do so because I haven't yet been squeezed to the point where my pips squeak. Most of the other people I see in my amble round Sainsburys most likely don't have that opportunity and need to fit their purchasing choices to their budget. So the battery eggs continue to sell because they're the cheapest, even if that's not how the average consumer wants their eggs produced.

There are sound arguments to suggest that true altruism doesn't actually exist, because, on some level the individual benefits to some degree.

Maybe... I've already said that climate change is a big concern for me because I'd like our planet to still be habitable if/when I finally get to retire. But it should be a more pressing concern for my friends who have children and grandchildren who will experience the worst effects if we don't do something about it.

And maybe the £50-odd that I send to various worthy causes each month is just to help me to get over the feeling of guilt that I can't be there to help them on the front line because I'm too busy doing my full time job.

But mainly I do it because I think it's the right thing to do. There's a bit of self-interest and a bit of wanting to feel good about myself, but mostly it's altruism.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: moley on December 21, 2010, 10:21:27 pm
Personally, this summed up the ugliest side of capitalism:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12052454 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12052454)

Quote

London Mayor's loan firm Tube deal branded 'shameful'

Wonga.com posters have been put up on London's transport network

The London mayor's decision to accept sponsorship from a high interest loan firm for free travel on the Tube on New Year's Eve has been branded "shameful".

Their random number interest rate generator comes up with 2689% APR....

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Spectre on December 21, 2010, 11:30:48 pm
Great reading on this thread today TSers  :clap:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 22, 2010, 01:09:21 am
Quote
Capitalism does include elements of altruism - it's laughably Socialist Workeresque to simply conclude that all Captialism is selfish and evil.

... and there you go again, its equally laughable that you insist on polarising an issue and falsely attributing any resistance to your outmoded dogma as de facto 'Socialist Workeresque', 'leftie' etc. Why do you keep doing that?

Out of interest and in reaction to your rhetoric, I've just carefully re-read the thread. NOBODY has suggested or concluded that that 'all Captialism is selfish and evil'. What contributors can all clearly see for themselves though the numerous examples discussed is that some definately is. As for the remainder of capitalism, whilst it might not be imoral, its certainly mostly amoral. I think we all know that without the intervention of the State through law, regulation and targetted welfare, how much worse it would be.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 22, 2010, 05:09:39 am
... and there you go again, its equally laughable that you insist on polarising an issue and falsely attributing any resistance to your outmoded dogma as de facto 'Socialist Workeresque', 'leftie' etc. Why do you keep doing that?

Because people still insist on pretending that their outmoded dogma, 'Capitalism sucks, corporations are bad' and 'It's all the bankers' fault', is somehow forward thinking and sensible. It's actually the politics of the 80s. The current trend for blaming everything and its dog on 'the bankers' brings to mind the old lesbian/feminist clarion call of 'All men are rapists'. It's so hyperbolic (and demonstrably untrue) as to render those who make the claims completely redundant to any sensible debate.

The amount of times I've read and heard morons saying things about the economy/deficit such as, 'If we took all the bankers bonuses off them we'd be fine' is unbelievable. I know times are hard, but are people really that thick and desperate to leap to such simplistically incorrect 'solutions'?

The comments in several posts above are actually very interesting. People seem to blame the banks for moving with the times and assisting a certain type of customer by offering self-certificated mortgages and then essentially admit that the banks should never have trusted their customers because they're liars. While I accept that Gordon Brown should have been tighter on banking sector regulation, the law is actually quite hard on financial fraud... yet that regulation didn't stop many thousands of people committing the crime.

Just because you have the opportunity to lie does not mean that you should. Also, nobody seems to have mentioned the banks retrospectively having the police charge a large percentage of their customers with the criminal act of fraud - maybe they should do that, you know, to help prevent people doing such things in future? But, no, it's easier for us to all look the other way and pretend that hundreds of thousands of people didn't dishonestly take out loans that they knew they had no hope of ever paying back. I'm not suggesting that all banks have acted well in this, clearly they haven't, but it's not only pathetic but also very worrying that society doesn't seem able to admit that the banking crisis could only ever have happened with the complicit poor/illegal decisions of a large percentage of the public.

With regards to other sectors, there are now plenty of examples of ethically motivated and morally sound private companies. As I said before, that's the great thing about Capitalism, it reflects human nature, aspirations and ideology better than any other system we've yet come up with. Also, the vast majority of private companies are small companies, often one or two-man bands. The majority of them are not out to 'screw the poor', or whatever, they're simply trying to make a living and keep a roof over their own heads. They're just people who'd rather try and work for themselves, and possibly give employment opportunities to others, rather than work for other people.  There aren't many private companies that get to sell powdered baby milk to Africa or pollute the Gulf Coast with oil.

The sad thing is that some people immediately equate success (and making a profit) with people being bastards. Apologies if you think I'm constantly labelling that type of approach as Left-wing, but the image it always conjures up in my mind is this one:

(http://content8.flixster.com/photo/11/59/40/11594090_gal.jpg)
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 22, 2010, 02:02:19 pm
And here's the image I see listening to you...

 :santa_azn:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Yu6lJst3lkM/Sps97NrBSzI/AAAAAAAAE54/axqJ098Il3g/s320/alan-bstard.jpg)
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 22, 2010, 02:06:59 pm
The sad thing is that some people immediately equate success (and making a profit) with people being bastards.

I'm halfway there then.

Personally speaking I think affiliation to a political party is equivalent to a self inflicted lobotomy, commitment to the cause immediately reduces any number of options and solutions that are available in any given situation, and the solution that is selected will be entirely predictable, and probably ineffective because it is predictable.

I have views that may align with the policies of any of the three major parties at any given time, though it getting hard to distinguish quite what the policies are, I also have views that would align with Nazi and Communist doggerel if I am honest, they are in the minority in so I don't fret too much, chances are I will lose all interest in Poland one day anyway.

Politicians and party members haven't got that kind of flexibility and honesty which is why thay are not fit for purpose and never will be.

Imagine if you applied that kind of inflexibility to the rest of your life.

If I was Prime Minister I would use my secret police to hunt down everyone who had ever held membership of any political party and exile them to Bulgaria.

I feckin hate Bulgaria.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 22, 2010, 02:08:00 pm
And here's the image I see listening to you...

Bit weird, given that I'm not a Tory.

Didn't B'Stard actually end up a hero? Maybe that's why you're confusing he and I?  :santa_afro:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 22, 2010, 02:15:53 pm
Personally speaking I think affiliation to a political party is equivalent to a self inflicted lobotomy, commitment to the cause immediately reduces any number of options and solutions that are available in any given situation, and the solution that is selected will be entirely predictable, and probably ineffective because it is predictable.

I'd tend to agree.

My stance is one of initial extreme libertarianism but supported by a law & order system that would make Ghengis Khan blanch.

This is why I cannot identify with anything on the Left: they're completely anti-individual and anti-liberty while at the same time advocate a virtually hands off/soft as possible approach to crime and criminals.

Given Ken Clarke's current approach, I literally have nobody I can vote for. It all just boils down to begrudgingly voting for whoever has the best chance of keeping Labour from regaining office.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 22, 2010, 02:25:17 pm
Bugger.

Can't find anything contentious in that post. May have to begin contradicting myself in order to start an unproductive row.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 22, 2010, 02:48:44 pm
And here's the image I see listening to you...

Bit weird, given that I'm not a Tory.

Didn't B'Stard actually end up a hero? Maybe that's why you're confusing he and I?  :santa_afro:

if your not a tory...then what are you? labour? :santa_cheesy:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 22, 2010, 02:53:06 pm
I feckin hate Bulgaria.

Yes but it is said that Bulgaria is the most effective country at keeping its roads and airports snow free.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 22, 2010, 03:01:51 pm
Yes but it is said that Bulgaria is the most effective country at keeping its roads and airports snow free.

I disagree, how many flights were cancelled in Qatar through snow this year, mmm?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 22, 2010, 03:14:04 pm
if your not a tory...then what are you? labour? :santa_cheesy:

It depends how you define it.

Currently, I have to vote LibDem locally (best chance of keeping Labour out) and Tory nationally (best chance of keeping Labour out).

However, I'm not a member of either party, nor ever will be, and neither reflects my views. In theory, my last votes 'won' both locally and nationally so I should be very happy with the current situation. Indeed, a LibDem/Tory coalition could potentially be about the best thing I could hope for, but instead of persuing the best aspects of each party's policies, we seem to be getting watered down versions of the worst.

One thing's for sure - just because you're not an avowed Tory does not make you Labour (and vice-versa).
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 22, 2010, 03:25:17 pm
So your a libdem then?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 22, 2010, 04:18:15 pm
So your a libdem then?

Hardly, their law & order policy is a ****ing joke.

I'm also one of the few that never thought Cable was up to much. I think people gave him the benefit of the doubt because he looks like he's about to cry most of the time. All he did was say that he'd sort of mentioned in passing a few years back that the economy might not stay buoyant forever - and overnight he became exalted as a political mastermind.

That said, Brown was prime minister at the time, so the kerb stone outside my house looked fairly adept in comparison.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 22, 2010, 04:24:16 pm
Ah very interesting...a green perhaps?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 22, 2010, 05:12:38 pm
Ah very interesting...a green perhaps?

Some of their policies make a lot of sense to me - but I'd never want them handed the reins (I'm sure they wouldn't either, realistically).
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 22, 2010, 06:09:29 pm
Ah right, your a political pick an mix
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: bobwright on December 22, 2010, 08:12:47 pm
I do not think it is that helpful just to rubbish other peoples thinking. Whilst affiliation to a political party may not be for everyone to then describe those who join in negative terms says more about the commentator than about those who have joined. The governance of this land can be changed however it currently embraces the idea of political parties. If a party is not seen for its politics but as a cooperative body, working in partnership and embracing individual thinking in order to make collective decisions on behalf of the nation what alternative is being proposed that improves things?

People often oppose what they do not understand. Through ignorance they cultivate reasoning for the stance that they have taken and even try to influence others to feel the same. This even goes as far as ascribing qualities to those they oppose. This may be an innate instinct based on survival needs. Sadly it is very simple to create enemies and inflame others to see others in a negative light. It is even sadder that those spreading negative messages hide their identity because they do not have the courage of their convictions or if they did reveal their identity their purpose would be exposed

I have not met a politician yet who was not a ‘Pick n Mix’ politician. I have not met a person yet who was not a ‘Pick n Mix’ person. Fortunately this quality allows for the changing of minds and to form common grounds. Labels may be useful but they do not do justice to the nature/thoughts of an individual. Quite a few join a political party because it is the closest representative party to their views. There seems very little support for either the Independent or ‘Pick n Mix’ approach to politics. Consistency is demanded and perhaps more relevant to this thread that a persons word is their bond. However time and time again in the heat of politics meltdown occurs.

For what it is worth whilst Marx may have explained the dynamics of politics Ghandi explained meltdown through inconsistent thinking and behaviour. Taken a step further all life is connected, no matter how many labels are applied. The connection also occurs in political thinking with right and left wing extremes inter-connecting. I salute the Greens for influencing politics through alternative thinking however I am sure there will be extremes within their thinking as well, can you have a ‘Pick n Mix’ green? Their extremes could be lime green, jade and teal. This would be very confusing for me as I am colour blind however it could be worse, thank god for the lobotomy.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 22, 2010, 09:37:40 pm
The governance of this land can be changed however it currently embraces the idea of political parties.

Mmmm, and what a roaring success it is proving to be.

If a party is not seen for its politics but as a cooperative body,

Yeah, but it co-operates with itself, not with other parties for the common good, would Ed bend the knee to Dave for the good of the country, or vice versa? Would he bollocks.

Working in partership and embracing individual thinking in order to make collective decisions on behalf of the nation

Sounds a bit Soviet to me comrade. Partnership with it's feckin self perhaps which in no way reflects the will of the electorate. Three things that would be the opposite of what they are were politicians willing to listen and act. Immigration would equal sweet bugger all, we would not be in the EU and prison overcrowding would be resolved by the death penalty. Unpleasant options though they may be we all know damn well they would be fact were the views of the public represented by their, erm, representatives.

However time and time again in the heat of politics meltdown occurs.

Yeah, when the pressure is on it fails. Not fit for purpose because poilicians pursue dogma not logic or sense.

what alternative is being proposed that improves things?

Cantons.

Quite a few join a political party because it is the closest representative party to their views.

Ah, so if you want representation you must comply, if you do not comply you will not be represented?

For what it is worth whilst Marx may have explained the dynamics of politics Ghandi explained meltdown through inconsistent thinking and behaviour.

Marx?

He died of phlegm, but first he said

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles

Currently that could be interpreted as a struggle between the people and those that they elect to represent them, but then resolutely fail to do so.

Ghandi, well if ony our politicians would lead such a resolutely simple lifestyle, but no, they like their 'trappings' too much.

If slagging off political parties is not permissible for an outsider, well, I shall start a political party. It will be called the 'Not A Political Party' and there will be no means of establishing one's membership. It's distinguishing features are that it does not have any. It's main objectives are whatever is most pressing and it has an abhorrence of rosettes. It's policies will be whatever most people want, if it's OK with them. In debate it will unaccountably agree with whatever seems sensible regardless of who said it. If in opossition it will develop the unnerving habit of saying 'OK, that sounds fair enough' whenever appropriate.

The connection also occurs in political thinking with right and left wing extremes inter-connecting

Oh my giddy aunt, give me a bleedin example then. I can think of the Molotov - Ribbentrop Pact:

In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol dividing Northern and Eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence, anticipating potential "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries. Thereafter, Germany and the Soviet Union invaded their respective sides of Poland, dividing the country between them. Part of eastern Finland was annexed by the Soviet Union after the Winter War. This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Bessarabia.

Nice, very representative and inclusive.

As for the Greens, well, I think they are a handy source of tax revenue stream suggestions and that's about it. They will fade as their policies are appropriated then bastardised by the established political parties.

Global warming, hah bloody hah.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: bobwright on December 22, 2010, 10:54:41 pm
So summarrised - no alternative just slagging off? How helpful.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 22, 2010, 11:23:19 pm
One of the policies.

Wasn't a slagging off anyway, that would have read completely differently. You would have been able to tell. It would have had things like 'What are you rambling on about you tw@t' and 'I wouldn't p1ss in your ear if your brain was alight'. It had none of these key indicators and was, therefore, not a slagging off.

It wasn't unreserved agreement which is probably why you found it unhelpful. (Alright, that bit is a bit like slagging off) What help were you seeking, pose a direct question, maybe I can, um, help.

I was very much challenging your assertions and there were several question marks which indicated an enquiry or request for illumination on my part.

There were also counter arguments. They were short and pithy so easily overlooked.

The alternative was 'Cantons', they are a political entity not a poorly spelt insult.

I also offered examples where the will of political parties prevailed, not the will of the people that elected them.

I offered an example of right/ left fusion and wondered whether you could find a more positive one.

Do you think yourselves and the other lot will pick over the Greens policies until they have nothing left of their own.

Prove me wrong, I'm defending nothing here, I claim no cause or moral high ground, I have no political heroes that inspire me and I can think of none I would espouse as a role model for the young sir. I find them all entirely too precious. Well, all the living ones anyway.

I value compassion, flexibility, assertiveness, national pride, selflessness, commonsense, logic, aptitude and the ability to listen to, then realise peoples' dreams in my leaders.

It gets a bit hot and they go droopy is no substitute.

Come on, politicians, what have they done for us lately?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 23, 2010, 09:43:15 am
Come on, politicians, what have they done for us lately?

Is that like the Monty Python what have the Romans ever done for us?

Got an option to call on some grit
Give us free Wifi
The Central Library
New schools
selling off the Oasis
Threatened to pull down the old college several times
A canal
The big weekend
Brought the Taberbnacle stones back to Swindon
Regeneration
Forward Swindon, that was so good they (Re) named it twice
The SSEP
Thousands of new houses opposite Oakhurst
Tadpole expressway
Letting Wiltshire build houses on Swindon's border ie Freshbrook & Shaw
One Swindon
Connecting People Connecting Places

I am sure this is just the tip of the political acheivements iceberg there must be many more
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Muggins on December 23, 2010, 09:47:04 am
Peace on Earth and goodwill to all men - aye!  (forget the women as usual)  :santa_cry:

My ears are ringing and it's not just the flu. 

Isn't it funny how one bad tempered person can influence the temper of others.  Like one bad apple spoiling the barrel.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 23, 2010, 11:19:32 am
People often oppose what they do not understand.

That's probably the one thing that's good about Labour having been in office for 13 years, we all now know only too well why we oppose everything they stand for.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 23, 2010, 12:39:21 pm
People often oppose what they do not understand.

That's probably the one thing that's good about Labour having been in office for 13 years, we all now know only too well why we oppose everything they stand for.

but you dont oppose everything..........

Quote
Personally, I believe Brown actually did the right thing. I don't think we need conventional armed forces like we used to. It just seemed odd to knock Cameron's cuts but ignore Brown's cuts to the same thing.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 23, 2010, 02:26:32 pm
People often oppose what they do not understand.

That's probably the one thing that's good about Labour having been in office for 13 years, we all now know only too well why we oppose everything they stand for.

but you dont oppose everything..........

Quote
Personally, I believe Brown actually did the right thing. I don't think we need conventional armed forces like we used to. It just seemed odd to knock Cameron's cuts but ignore Brown's cuts to the same thing.

I oppose everything they stand for (as I said). However, it's inevitable that in 13 years they did do a few things that weren't wholly detrimental... even if just by accident rather than design.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 23, 2010, 03:40:13 pm
People often oppose what they do not understand.

That's probably the one thing that's good about Labour having been in office for 13 years, we all now know only too well why we oppose everything they stand for.

but you dont oppose everything..........

Quote
Personally, I believe Brown actually did the right thing. I don't think we need conventional armed forces like we used to. It just seemed odd to knock Cameron's cuts but ignore Brown's cuts to the same thing.

I oppose everything they stand for (as I said). However, it's inevitable that in 13 years they did do a few things that weren't wholly detrimental... even if just by accident rather than design.

well its only accidental by however you perceive it?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 23, 2010, 04:42:52 pm
well its only accidental by however you perceive it?

That's true. Everything is perception, ultimately.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: bobwright on December 23, 2010, 04:58:44 pm
‘I value compassion, flexibility, assertiveness, national pride, selflessness, commonsense, logic, aptitude and the ability to listen to, then realise peoples' dreams in my leaders.’

Mart - we have common ground however I can not let the past mistakes of others or myself handcuff today or the future.

To change things and provide a durable improvement in society using the values you have conveyed they will need to influence and work against bullies, the self interested, the bigoted, the control freaks, the ill informed, the gullible, the revengeful and the down right evil minded.

If I dwelled in the mistakes I would not benefit from the experience of further action. I would not be able to challenge others if I permanently had a monkey on my back. I make the choice that if by working with like minded others, things can improve, then that is the thing to do.  Why should I be limited by the views of those whose only contribution is the reminder of previous mistakes?

I have found a poem that I think helps to understand connection and choice.

One ship drives east and another drives west
With the self same wind that blow
‘Tis the set of the sails
And not the gales
That tells us the way to go
Like the winds of the sea are the ways of fate:
As we voyage along through life,
‘Tis the set of the soul
That decides its goal,
And not the calm, or the strife.

(Ella Wheeler Wilcox)

I know the challenge is to affect those whose base nature is to look after their self interest. To stop them succumbing to the temptation of political power and taking advantage of others. To rise above old divides and differences so that politics becomes trustworthy. I can not see that becoming achievable by just illustrating what we/they got wrong.

By the way I think it is inevitable the change to NHS provision based on Doctors is doomed to fail for the very same reason Politicians fail. Relatively free access to large sums of money and power will see some Doctors fall to temptation.

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 23, 2010, 05:10:41 pm
I know the challenge is to affect those whose base nature is to look after their self interest.

Fascism, then?

Quote
Fascists claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism. Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.

The welfare state is nothing more than Fascism applied under a sneering veneer of being 'caring'.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Geoff Reid on December 23, 2010, 05:12:50 pm
 
I make the choice that if by working with like minded others, things can improve, then that is the thing to do.  Why should I be limited by the views of those whose only contribution is the reminder of previous mistakes?

Good and worthy points but be cautious of those who purport to be of 'the same mind' as you Bob, on this one point I would caution you to learn from the mistakes other have already made in their dealings with Der Leader.

Cllr Bluh is as expert at mirroring an attitude, frame of mind or philosophy as a Chameleon is at changing colour.  It may be very useful skill but it's still deception. 
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Geoff Reid on December 23, 2010, 05:23:39 pm
The welfare state is nothing more than Fascism applied under a sneering veneer of being 'caring'.

Funny that, 'compassionate conservatism' could be described as "nothing more than Fascism applied under a sneering veneer of being caring".  :santa_afro:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 23, 2010, 05:28:23 pm
Funny that, 'compassionate conservatism' could be described as "nothing more than Fascism applied under a sneering veneer of being caring".  :santa_afro:

I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: bobwright on December 23, 2010, 06:04:58 pm
20Eyes – If I have conveyed fascism then I have clearly failed. I was thinking more in line with the positive attitude shown by Americans based on the ‘American Way’. In spite of all the inequality and greed a large number of people in the States are bound by the idea of the ‘American Way’ no matter what their differences may be.

Geoff – I can not read auras but I know through Kirlianian Photography the colours an individual produces can be understood. If deception is present it will show in the behaviour and colours. If deception is used as a means of leadership it will only affect those willing to be affected. If deception is used to lead then ‘One Swindon’ has no chance because the only foundation which will allow it to succeed is trustworthiness.

Just to add another thought, some judge others by the company they keep. So how do you judge someone who appreciates the warning you have given? My NLP training covered ‘Mirroring’; it also covered ‘Pacing’ so please forgive me if I am a bit slow.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 23, 2010, 06:19:43 pm
20Eyes – If I have conveyed fascism then I have clearly failed. I was thinking more in line with the positive attitude shown by Americans based on the ‘American Way’. In spite of all the inequality and greed a large number of people in the States are bound by the idea of the ‘American Way’ no matter what their differences may be.given? My NLP training covered ‘Mirroring’; it also covered ‘Pacing’ so please forgive me if I am a bit slow.

The great thing about the 'American Way' is that it's rooted in individualism, something the the Left aren't keen on (though they may well pretend that's not the case).

Arguably, the Left is at odds with at least two the three tenets:

"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 23, 2010, 07:32:14 pm
Mart - we have common ground however I can not let the past mistakes of others or myself handcuff today or the future.

I'd agree we probably share the same aspirations, however you seem convinced that the status quo will deliver them, I am equally convinced that it will not. I, obviously, am right. Your system has had donkey's years and fecked everything up, my system of a determinedly apolitical approach based on skilled and experienced leaders compelled to deliver the wishes of the majority of the electorate has not even had a go. So even if I am not right at least I ain't been proved wrong.

You must be mindful of the mistakes of others, let's see, those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it (we should be so lucky). The mistakes made by the present system are significant and the system is little changed, therefore, like it or not, you are handcuffed to it by your wilful association with it.

Befehl ist befehl and all that, you can't be of it and not in it, you have inhaled like it ot not and continue to do so.

P'raps I am a nihilist.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: bobwright on December 24, 2010, 12:11:31 am
P'raps your just contentious for the right reasons Mart?

20 Eyes - It is not often I am told what values I hold because I am a member of the Labour Party. I have only once experienced anything like what you have described in all your deliberations however even then I made my own mind up based on the evidence I saw for myself. You write as if you are a scorned ex-member seeking to not only rebalance bad experience but to also ascribe values to others as if they were truth. Someone suggested this was due to lack of maturity however I think it more likely to be simple ignorance. Your comments do help me to notice that which I would not have noticed.

Dwight D Eisenhower said "The history of free man is never written by chance but by choice - their choice"






Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 25, 2010, 07:51:44 am
Someone suggested this was due to lack of maturity however I think it more likely to be simple ignorance. Your comments do help me to notice that which I would not have noticed.

My ignorance helps you to notice that which you would not have noticed? Interesting, what does that say about your starting point?

Dwight D Eisenhower said "The history of free man is never written by chance but by choice - their choice"

A fantastic quote - so why are you a member of a party that seeks to impose its/the States choice and decisions on every individual... because you (who are apparently not ignorant) think you know better how to run people's lives than they do.

The more I hear/read, the more I detest the Left and their insidious evil, all wrapped up in the cyncial veneer of 'caring'. How can you be a member of a party that would enslave people to state benefit dependency and reduce everything to the lowest common denominator? Man's inhumanity to man can be horrifying.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Richard Symonds on December 25, 2010, 07:34:54 pm
It's open to all, of course, but the general impression I get is that it's left-leaning in the main. The left are very good at denying bias. I'm sure you've heard of the BBC  :santa_wink:

Well 20Eyes I need to tell you a story about Councillor Vera Tomlinson at the recent Moredon Bye Election - she accused me of being Labour and then said the Tories would retain the seat. 

She was wrong on both counts as I told her at the time.  Like Steve Wakefield I am very independently minded and would never be acceptable to any party machine as a consequence.  I asked Vera if she was correct about my allegiences why I had helped her leaflet in St Philips three and a half years ago?  I reminded her about our conversation about Justin's Father and his work in the domestic appliance industry, but sadly as with all these people they easily forget and then you realise you are only as useful as the last time you helped them.

As a life long Conservative (but with a considerable social conscience) I cannot believe the way the Tories are behaving both locally and nationally and so in future will support anyone who I believe will do the best for Swindon and the country as a whole.  The trouble is we have lost 'balance' in our society and until this is restored we are in for very hard and difficult time.

and after all that heavy stuff on Christmas Day may I wish everyone a very happy Christmas and may the New Year bring us better times.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Richard Symonds on December 25, 2010, 08:27:12 pm
Come on, politicians, what have they done for us lately?

Is that like the Monty Python what have the Romans ever done for us?

Got an option to call on some grit
Give us free Wifi
The Central Library
New schools
selling off the Oasis
Threatened to pull down the old college several times
A canal
The big weekend
Brought the Taberbnacle stones back to Swindon
Regeneration
Forward Swindon, that was so good they (Re) named it twice
The SSEP
Thousands of new houses opposite Oakhurst
Tadpole expressway
Letting Wiltshire build houses on Swindon's border ie Freshbrook & Shaw
One Swindon
Connecting People Connecting Places

I am sure this is just the tip of the political acheivements iceberg there must be many more

You don't half talk bollocks sometimes Ringer!!

We could all live without your list and the cost to us Council Tax payers!!

Well maybe all except our Rod the Wi-fi King.

Will that go on his tombstone?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 25, 2010, 11:05:17 pm
Richard - I think you've missed Ringer's sarcastic tone....?

 :wakeup:

 :santa_afro:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 25, 2010, 11:43:36 pm
You don't half talk bollocks sometimes Ringer!!
We could all live without your list and the cost to us Council Tax payers!!
Well maybe all except our Rod the Wi-fi King.
Will that go on his tombstone?

Oh dear if you think I am talking bollocks then that list must be complete and utter bollocks?  :santa_embarassed:  :santa_embarassed:  :santa_embarassed: Apologies for ticking you off  :tickedoff:

Richard - I think you've missed Ringer's sarcastic tone....?
:wakeup:
:santa_afro:

Sarcastic Moi?  :2funny: well it is Christmas afterall and the Whiskey is working overtime.

Quote
Rod the Wi-fi King.
Will that go on his tombstone?

What do you think will be his political epitaph? BTW I am watching Die Hard on TV and don't you just love it when a "Brooding Quixotic dictator" leader of a group gets sorted by a Roy Rogers? Yippee-ki-yay energiser bunny!


Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tea Boy on December 26, 2010, 12:19:50 am

The great thing about the 'American Way' is that it's rooted in individualism, something the the Left aren't keen on (though they may well pretend that's not the case).

Arguably, the Left is at odds with at least two the three tenets:

"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

There is no great thing about the 'American Way', I always found it hypocritical of the Septics that thier dream is, "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness"

1. Life, whats that supposed to mean, like no other country allows it?
2. Liberty, from a country that until the 60's denied simple human rights to a large section of thier population based solely on the colour of thier skin.
3. The pursuit of happiness? more bollocks, America's fine if you're loaded, not so great if your poor. You can pursue it, but what regard is given to you if you can't obtain it.

As typical with America, its flim flam, smoke and mirrors rubbish designed to hide the true nature of the capitalist beast. The use of the individual as a consumer, to be dicarded and disregarded once thier spending power is exhausted. The 'American Dream' , b***sh1t, to quote Al Murray Pub Landloard, the British don't need a 'Dream' cos were already awake. We can see what 'they' are doing.

The thought of this country coming out of clegeroon's ideologically motivated attack on everything that makes this country special, as a clone of America, worries me deeply. Capitalism is never about left or right wing politics, its about the Rich and the Poor and how without realising the poor remain poor and are made to feel that they are doing alright by just scraping along and the Rich find more ways of becoming Richer. Individualism? sorry doesn't work for me, much prefer to be in a more collective and socially orientated society. The only real freedom is achieved when you can't be sacked, or that someone else doesn't have the power to change your finances or future. Until you've secured that income, you can't truly be an individual as you always have to rely on someone else in some way. so real lasting 'Individualism' is for the Rich only.

When your living day to day, disenfranchised and worrying how to make ends meet, who cares whether your 'individualism' is threatened or enhanced, you are too busy worrying about financing the next day/week/month.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 26, 2010, 12:38:46 am
Good Post Tea Boy
I like the Pub Landlord and as you have pointed out The Pub Landlord is right its all Bulls***t also he has a few interesting  views on Europe as well.

Here are the words to ODE to Joy the Anthem of Europe .

Quote
Europe is united now
United that it may remain;
Our unity in diversity
May contribute to world peace.

May there forever reign in Europe
Faith and justice and Freedom
For all its many people

In a greater motherland
Citizens, Europe will flourish,
A great task calls on to you.
The stars in the night sky
Are the symbols that unite us.


I believe Cleggaron is all for Europe ?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 26, 2010, 09:48:52 am
Individualism? sorry doesn't work for me, much prefer to be in a more collective and socially orientated society.

Didn't work too well for the good people of Russia, did it?

And without simply providing a lie as your answer, if you were told you had to emigrate, tomorrow, to either America or China, which would you choose?

The only real freedom is achieved when you can't be sacked, or that someone else doesn't have the power to change your finances or future. Until you've secured that income, you can't truly be an individual as you always have to rely on someone else in some way. so real lasting 'Individualism' is for the Rich only.

I really don't think it's as completely about money as you suggest, but I tend to agree with the first part of your statement. So, that being the case, what's stopping you setting up a business of your own, working for yourself? Because until you do, it doesn't matter where you live - you'll always be at the whim of the State or your private employer.

May I ask, are you married, or do you have children? Because, according to your statement, doing so must also mean you've sacrificed your true freedom.

When your living day to day, disenfranchised and worrying how to make ends meet, who cares whether your 'individualism' is threatened or enhanced, you are too busy worrying about financing the next day/week/month.

It's true that there's a certain type of person and mindset that is drawn to the concept of the State ensuring that everything will be OK. Unfortunately, the State can only do that for a certain period, because once everyone realises that there's no downside, no consequence to their actions, people tend to take the easy route and have everything sorted out and provided for them.

That, unfortunately, is about as far removed from my concept of 'freedom' as its possible to get. All it takes is a change of government and, all of a sudden, you're ****ed.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tea Boy on December 26, 2010, 07:53:16 pm
Individualism? sorry doesn't work for me, much prefer to be in a more collective and socially orientated society.

Didn't work too well for the good people of Russia, did it?

And without simply providing a lie as your answer, if you were told you had to emigrate, tomorrow, to either America or China, which would you choose?

The only real freedom is achieved when you can't be sacked, or that someone else doesn't have the power to change your finances or future. Until you've secured that income, you can't truly be an individual as you always have to rely on someone else in some way. so real lasting 'Individualism' is for the Rich only.

I really don't think it's as completely about money as you suggest, but I tend to agree with the first part of your statement. So, that being the case, what's stopping you setting up a business of your own, working for yourself? Because until you do, it doesn't matter where you live - you'll always be at the whim of the State or your private employer.

May I ask, are you married, or do you have children? Because, according to your statement, doing so must also mean you've sacrificed your true freedom.

When your living day to day, disenfranchised and worrying how to make ends meet, who cares whether your 'individualism' is threatened or enhanced, you are too busy worrying about financing the next day/week/month.

It's true that there's a certain type of person and mindset that is drawn to the concept of the State ensuring that everything will be OK. Unfortunately, the State can only do that for a certain period, because once everyone realises that there's no downside, no consequence to their actions, people tend to take the easy route and have everything sorted out and provided for them.

That, unfortunately, is about as far removed from my concept of 'freedom' as its possible to get. All it takes is a change of government and, all of a sudden, you're ****ed.

20 where do you get this tripe from, this country has never been about extremes so why try to justify your point by constantly using them? First neither, I'll happily stay here in the UK where fair minded people practice democracy in a moderate society thanks. In fact not only would I stay but I would fight to keep this country that way. I travelled when I was younger, I am yet to find any country with a better society, or more beautiful landscape than good old blighty.

Not everyone can or wants to work for themselves. The key in any case, is realising you are not truely free in a captalist system in the very same way you aren't free in a communist one. One has the state controlling you the other is businesses and corporations. A business is only accountable to its owner or it's shareholders, it neither cares or requires you to be free or not, it's use of you to provide it with income is the thing that takes your abilty to be free away. At least in a democracy you can vote the government out and they are accountable to the electorate at that time. People or profit? Give me people anytime.

Surely when you have children you do sacrifice some freedom, you become responsible for others and that ties you down, to not do so would be irresponsible. Unless of course you have finances to pay some one to look after them for you. Try asking someone if they feel free if they have a mortgage, to house thier kids. If I did have kids the sacrifice of my freedom would be unconditional for thier benefit.

I could argue further, personally I think it's already been said by Paul Weller and the Jam far more eloquently than I could ever do. And to think this was written over 20 years ago during a different right wing government. Just shows how far we haven't come in all that time.



Going Underground. The Jam.

Some people might say my life is in a rut
But I'm quite happy with what I got
People might say that I should strive for more
But I'm so happy I can't see the point

Somethings happening here today
A show of strength with your boy's brigade and
I'm so happy and you're so kind
You want more money, of course I don't mind
To buy nuclear textbooks for atomic crimes

And the public gets what the public wants
But I want nothing this society's got
I'm going underground
(Going underground)...................

Some people might get some pleasure out of hate me
I've enough already on my plate
People might need some tension to relax
I'm too busy dodging between the flak

What you see is what you get
You've made your bed, you better lie in it
You choose your leaders and place your trust
As their lies put you down and their promises rust
You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns

And the public gets what the public wants
But I want nothing this society's got
I'm going underground
(Going underground)...................

We talk and we talk until my head explodes
I turn on the news and my body froze
The braying sheep on my TV screen
Make this boy shout, make this boy scream
Going underground, going underground
Going underground, I'm going underground



Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Chav on December 26, 2010, 08:31:48 pm
There is always:

Bittersweet Symphony - by The Verve

'Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, this life
Try to make ends meet
You're a slave to money then you die
I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
You know the one that takes you to the places
where all the veins meet yeah,

No change, I can change
I can change, I can change
But I'm here in my mold
I am here in my mold
But I'm a million different people
from one day to the next
I can't change my mold
No, no, no, no, no

Well I never pray
But tonight I'm on my knees yeah
I need to hear some sounds that recognize the pain in me, yeah
I let the melody shine, let it cleanse my mind, I feel free now
But the airways are clean and there's nobody singing to me now

No change, I can change
I can change, I can change
But I'm here in my mold
I am here in my mold
And I'm a million different people
from one day to the next
I can't change my mold
No, no, no, no, no
I can't change
I can't change

'Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, this life
Try to make ends meet
Try to find some money then you die
I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
You know the one that takes you to the places
where all the things meet yeah

You know I can change, I can change
I can change, I can change
But I'm here in my mold
I am here in my mold
And I'm a million different people
from one day to the next
I can't change my mold
No, no, no, no, no

I can't change my mold
no, no, no, no, no,
I can't change
Can't change my body,
no, no, no

I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
Been down
Ever been down
Ever been down
Ever been down
Ever been down
Have you ever been down?
Have you've ever been down?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tea Boy on December 26, 2010, 09:04:52 pm
There is always:

Bittersweet Symphony - by The Verve


Chav, Your good, Very good..... indeed a classic...
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 26, 2010, 10:35:07 pm
Bittersweet Symphony - by The Verve

Miserable bastards.

I saw The Jam at Guildford Civic Hall the week Going Underground went straight in at Number 1, happy days.

Anyway:

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

To the tune of The Wheels on The Bus.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 27, 2010, 08:56:25 am
Anyway:

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

Amen to that. Says it all. Presumably that's why all socialists have to try so hard to put on the pretence that they're not simply miserable, bitter and failed individuals.

I almost feel sorry for them, were it not for the fact that in a futile attempt to mitigate their own situation they'd like to bring everyone else down to the same level.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tea Boy on December 27, 2010, 10:27:20 pm
Anyway:

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

Amen to that. Says it all. Presumably that's why all socialists have to try so hard to put on the pretence that they're not simply miserable, bitter and failed individuals.

I almost feel sorry for them, were it not for the fact that in a futile attempt to mitigate their own situation they'd like to bring everyone else down to the same level.

Where do you get this drivel 20?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: bobwright on December 27, 2010, 11:40:32 pm
Tea Boy - Its not drivel it is the seeds of dischord.

The continuous stream of one sided wording can only be penned by the hand of one who is not seeking to be balanced but to sow dischord.
The value of TS is that it turns over stones which others would rather not be turned. If the platform is steered away from the stones or dischord leads to the sites unpopularity its value will be wrecked.

Reinforcing prejudice and inflaming ignorance is not helpful to debate but useful in creating dischord. Who knows it could even lead to another site stepping in to take on the debates but under the control of someone who will not turn over stones.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Geoff Reid on December 28, 2010, 01:38:12 am
Tea Boy - Its not drivel it is the seeds of dischord.

The continuous stream of one sided wording can only be penned by the hand of one who is not seeking to be balanced but to sow dischord.
The value of TS is that it turns over stones which others would rather not be turned. If the platform is steered away from the stones or dischord leads to the sites unpopularity its value will be wrecked.

Reinforcing prejudice and inflaming ignorance is not helpful to debate but useful in creating dischord. Who knows it could even lead to another site stepping in to take on the debates but under the control of someone who will not turn over stones.

Dunno about some of the above, monthly page views are up by almost 37,000 on this time last year.  Viewers do like a bit of vicarious viciousness :santa_smiley:

Subjective opinions of where 20 Eyes is on the 'radar of reasonableness' seem to be somewhere North of Rob Magic and a tad further to the right than Pogo Greenhalgh. Pointing fingers and branding anyone who disagrees with a statement or opinion they publish as 'lefties' is a fairly typical 'if you aren't with me you must be a communist pinko fag' tactic which is more suited to those with an Americanophile Republicanist mindset than us provincial hicks in Wiltshire but using the recent exchange between Tea Boy and 20 as an example, it should be fairly obvious that 20 is trolling, and has been for a while. 

It doesn't matter how 'intellectual' the words might look and sound, trolling is still trolling.  It is up to other members to decide how, or whether, to respond and interact with the 20's, Rob Magics and Pogo's of the www.  If members want to expend their energy arguing with people who have already told them they consider talking to them a waste of time, aren't they also wasting their time responding to them?, especially when there are so many other interesting things to be discussing.

Members set their own topics and they are quite capable of ignoring posts and posters they think are deliberately pulling their threads out of whack or trying to pick an argument with them.

I was asked today if I thought 20 Eyes and some other members are actively pursuing an agenda which involves trying to 'damage or discredit' Talkswindon, or make it a less inviting venue for others to use.  I thought it was an interesting question.


Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tea Boy on December 29, 2010, 12:07:34 am
Yes, it was becoming most tiresome. I had thought about leaving the ongoing discussion earlier in the thread. I learnt a long time ago to foresee some one on a wind up. Got a Jam Lyric in though :santa_afro:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 29, 2010, 10:20:41 am
Yes, it was becoming most tiresome. I had thought about leaving the ongoing discussion earlier in the thread. I learnt a long time ago to foresee some one on a wind up. Got a Jam Lyric in though :santa_afro:

It was good you did not leave it as it confirms my view of you as a poster with a social conscience who would understand the irony of all the things this council is doing................. as the lyric goes 
Quote
This is progress, nothing stands in its path Yellow bulldozers, the donkey jackets and J.C.B.'s While hundreds are homeless they're constructing a parking space
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 29, 2010, 12:17:14 pm
Where do you get this drivel 20?

My experience of people I've met/known that are staunchly left-wing.

Quote from:  bobwright
Tea Boy - Its not drivel it is the seeds of dischord.

The continuous stream of one sided wording can only be penned by the hand of one who is not seeking to be balanced but to sow dischord.

The value of TS is that it turns over stones which others would rather not be turned. If the platform is steered away from the stones or dischord leads to the sites unpopularity its value will be wrecked.

Reinforcing prejudice and inflaming ignorance is not helpful to debate but useful in creating dischord. Who knows it could even lead to another site stepping in to take on the debates but under the control of someone who will not turn over stones.

And there you have it. 'Seeds of dischord'? What, a person not sharing your view and, instead, taking an opposite view? You then go on to very unsubtly attempt to threaten/imply that any view that is not, presumably, harmonious with your own view will somehow drive the site into evil hands (again, presumably you mean the hands of people who don't all agree with your view?)

I don't mind what the likes of bobwright post on here. They can play the victim card and emote their faux-caring all day long as far as I'm concerned... and yet the likes of bobwright don't like it when others voice their opinions. That's those delightful socialists all over. They only believe in freedom of speech when they're hearing what they want to hear. Sad.

Quote from: Geoff Reid
I was asked today if I thought 20 Eyes and some other members are actively pursuing an agenda which involves trying to 'damage or discredit' Talkswindon, or make it a less inviting venue for others to use.  I thought it was an interesting question.

Given that there seems to be a contribution number of around 20 and a hardcore posting membership of about 10 people, it seems a fairly paranoid and redundant question.

Had you not stopped to think that some of the left-wing views expressed here (and there are plenty) leave a rather nasty taste in the mouth and give the forum an air of a slightly deluded, cliquey and outdated overall viewpoint? No, I don't suppose you had. I have no agenda whatsoever on Talk Swindon, I just returned to it and felt that it was all so one-sided and 'lovey dovey airy fairy' that some alternate opinions may make the place a bit more interesting and worthwhile.

Whether you like it or not (and whether you can see it or not), Talk Swindon does seem to consist of anti-Tory, basket weaving craft types who hate corporations and developers, feel it's somebody else's fault that they're not a high-flyer and almost seem to see Swindon as a small village where everyone has the same kind of leftish/so-say liberal (apart from when anyone posts something that doesn't toe the party line) approach that's usually adopted by Champagne Socialists.

It's like a modern-day, communal version of The Good Life. Maybe that's why not many people, other than the clique, seemed to have been posting much?

As for trolling, I can think of two regular contributors who fit that bill FAR more than I ever would.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Chav on December 29, 2010, 05:10:44 pm
Quote
As for trolling, I can think of two regular contributors who fit that bill FAR more than I ever would.

as in who ?

20Eyes you said ''Talk Swindon does seem to consist of anti-Tory, basket weaving craft types''

How do you know this ?

I think you will find that Talk Swindon consists of people from all walks of life including differentiation in party political followers/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. They maybe 'watchers, contributors, regular contributors.

I am not anti- Tory and I don't weave baskets either !

Everyone who posts on TS does so of their own will, and its the combination of different types of posters that makes Talk Swindon so interesting  :santa_afro:

I like people 20Eyes, and what people have to say is interesting , and this also includes what you have to say.

You seem to come across as quite angry sometimes - are you angry ?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 29, 2010, 05:24:24 pm
Quote
As for trolling, I can think of two regular contributors who fit that bill FAR more than I ever would.

as in who ?

20Eyes you said ''Talk Swindon does seem to consist of anti-Tory, basket weaving craft types''

How do you know this ?

I think you will find that Talk Swindon consists of people from all walks of life including differentiation in party political followers/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. They maybe 'watchers, contributors, regular contributors.

I am not anti- Tory and I don't weave baskets either !

Everyone who posts on TS does so of their own will, and its the combination of different types of posters that makes Talk Swindon so interesting  :santa_afro:

I like people 20Eyes, and what people have to say is interesting , and this also includes what you have to say.

You seem to come across as quite angry sometimes - are you angry ?

or uptight?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 29, 2010, 05:28:50 pm
20Eyes you said ''Talk Swindon does seem to consist of anti-Tory, basket weaving craft types''

How do you know this ?

Um, because I can read, maybe? The response that's arisen due to somebody outside the clique deviating from the overall tone slightly really does speak volumes.

People actually talking about attempts to 'damage or discredit' the forum and 'seeds of dischord' just because somebody doesn't just hit the reply button and say, 'Yeah, bloody Bluh, what an arse'? I mean, can't you see how that looks to the majority who aren't in the TS clique??

I think you will find that Talk Swindon consists of people from all walks of life including differentiation in party political followers/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. They maybe 'watchers, contributors, regular contributors.

Yes, that's the party line. I almost fell for it last week, on the basis that if enough people say it enough times, there must be some truth in it. However, a couple of the more recent posts on this particular thread have persuaded me otherwise. There is most definitely a 'tone' here - and if you don't fit/agre with that tone, it seems you're viewed as trying to undermine the forum.

I am not anti- Tory and I don't weave baskets either !

OK.

Everyone who posts on TS does so of their own will, and its the combination of different types of posters that makes Talk Swindon so interesting  :santa_afro:

Apart from when somebody starts posting comments that don't basically echo everyone elses. Honestly, if you take me out of the equation (as bobwright seems to want to), I would honestly say that there are only two people who post here semi-regularly that don't have quite the same view/opinions as the majority of the rest of the regular contributors. Again, it's probably not easy to see it from within, but from without, it's blindingly apparent.

I like people 20Eyes, and what people have to say is interesting , and this also includes what you have to say.

I like most people. Can't honestly say I like everyone, because it simply isn't the case. I'm also very interested in what everyone has to say, which is why I don't make stupid comments when the left-wing professional politicians push their comments on here. 'Seeds of dischord' - from the party who took us to war in Iraq, it's comedy gold.

You seem to come across as quite angry sometimes - are you angry ?

Some of the things that politicians do make me a bit angry now and again, mainly because I hate people who aren't genuine and who put on a pretence - especially if that mask hides far more sinister realities beneath. I don't pretend to be something I'm not and I dislike people who do, especially when it's done to buy/gain votes.

For the vast majority of the time, I wouldn't say I was angry at all. I've got very little to be angry about, especially now that Labour have been booted out of office. That makes me feel fairly sublime, frankly.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 29, 2010, 05:29:47 pm
or uptight?

It's interesting how perceptions work. Anyone who knows me IRL will know just how amusingly ironic that comment is.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 29, 2010, 05:44:00 pm
Its not a perception, its an observation.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 29, 2010, 05:46:32 pm
Its not a perception, its an observation.

If you say so.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 29, 2010, 06:00:56 pm
No...I don't say many things, observations are usually gathered from facts, but seeing as I don't know you in real life (and have no intention of doing so) I can have a quick stab at why your an uptight rightie.

1. You were assaulted by a labourite
2. Your stuck in the past and can't move on
3. Your underwear is so tight its like your smuggling raisins and compensate by blaming labour.
4. You never eat anything or sleep so your seriously cranky.
5. Labour have wronged you in someway and now they are gone there's feck all you can do to them?
6. Your so angry at labour for not getting into govt again your trying desperately spur them into acton by slagging them off.
7 your so angry that the coalition (lib dem and tories) is in power, after no party being able to gain the trust you need to strike out.

Anyway just my observations....no need to reply 20 I doubt you'll be arrogant enough
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Chav on December 29, 2010, 06:37:00 pm
Quote
Um, because I can read, maybe? The response that's arisen due to somebody outside the clique deviating from the overall tone slightly really does speak volumes.
:clap: Well it's obvious that you can read 20EYES, no one is disputing the fact.

If you are suggesting that TS members are 'cliquey' then this is your perception and your opionion.

I have been a member of TS for a good few years now, and there have been many debates. During those debates, there have been some members who have stood in agreement with each other while others have not . This does not make people cliquey, it mearly demonstrates that to have a good debate, you need to look at the view points from both sides .

A clique - is a group or a place, and as you are posting on here implies that you are a member (you have to be to post) - so you must also be part of the clique 'TS' group/forum.

[quoteQuote from: Chav on Today at 05:10:44 PM
I think you will find that Talk Swindon consists of people from all walks of life including differentiation in party political followers/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. They maybe 'watchers, contributors, regular contributors.

Yes, that's the party line. I almost fell for it last week, on the basis that if enough people say it enough times, there must be some truth in it. However, a couple of the more recent posts on this particular thread have persuaded me otherwise. There is most definitely a 'tone' here - and if you don't fit/agre with that tone, it seems you're viewed as trying to undermine the forum.[/quote]


I stand by the following because its how I percieve TS to be , you will obvisously dismiss this because that is not how you percieve it to be. My point is 20EYEs, we are all very different and each poster on this forum has contributions to make, points to get across in his/her unique way.
So what ever 'tone' you are picking up on is via your own perception.  :santa_afro:


I think you will find that Talk Swindon consists of people from all walks of life including differentiation in party political followers/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. They maybe 'watchers, contributors, regular contributors.


Chav
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 29, 2010, 07:00:44 pm
If you are suggesting that TS members are 'cliquey' then this is your perception and your opionion.

Absolutely, that's definitely my perception and my opinion. 

I have been a member of TS for a good few years now, and there have been many debates. During those debates, there have been some members who have stood in agreement with each other while others have not . This does not make people cliquey, it mearly demonstrates that to have a good debate, you need to look at the view points from both sides .

As I say, it's often hard to see things clearly, in terms of what 'outsiders' would see, when you're in the middle of the clique.

A clique - is a group or a place, and as you are posting on here implies that you are a member (you have to be to post) - so you must also be part of the clique 'TS' group/forum.

Ah, right, so there are never cliques within cliques. I see. So, any child who goes to a school must automatically just be in the same clique as every other child who goes to that school. Yes, I see your point, that works...

I stand by the following because its how I percieve TS to be , you will obvisously dismiss this because that is not how you percieve it to be. My point is 20EYEs, we are all very different and each poster on this forum has contributions to make, points to get across in his/her unique way.
So what ever 'tone' you are picking up on is via your own perception.  :santa_afro:

Agreed. As a person who's not in the clique, my perception is that it's fairly cliquey. Your perception, from within the clique, is that it's not. I totally agree with you.

I think you will find that Talk Swindon consists of people from all walks of life including differentiation in party political followers/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. They maybe 'watchers, contributors, regular contributors.

That's true, but it's not quite the point I'm making. For example, if you read the Guardian online, you will see that a percentage of the reader comments are glaringly right-wing. There is clearly a much wider, overall, member demographic on that website than this one... but I don't suppose anyone would seriously attempt to suggest that the overall tone of the reader comments are not left-wing.

Sure, this forum has a relatively wide range of members, but the ones who post frequently all tend to agree about the same topics. Indeed, one poster appears to think that somebody holding an opposite view is planting 'seeds of discord'.

If that poster didn't think that most people thought the same way as him, how on earth could an opposite view be considered to be 'discordant'?

I mean, seriously, think about this line:

Quote
Reinforcing prejudice and inflaming ignorance is not helpful to debate but useful in creating dischord.

Just because I neither trust nor like the left-wing? Seriously?!? Because somebody challenges your political stance they're 'Reinforcing prejudice and inflaming ignorance'? This is the same language that the left have used, for many years, to shut down any opposing view point. I can only assume it's because they're scared of people knowing the truth about them.

How could anyone create 'discord' unless that particular poster believes the majority around him/here all think the same way in the first place?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 29, 2010, 07:10:52 pm
Quote
My experience of people I've met/known that are staunchly left-wing.

... and numerous issues and threads through-out the history of TS prove that many of the people who are disagreeing with you now are anything but left wing. And for most people, even if they don't agree with a left wing philosophy, at least they can understand the motivations that pursuade people to follow it - being left wing doesn't mean that their opinion has to be automatically be dismissed. Hell, we don't even do that to the BNP round here - though I suspect many of us are in the process of making an exception for you  :santa_afro:

It makes interacting with you rather boring and pointless because you insist on ascribing a false allegiance onto a bunch of otherwise free thinking people (or a 'clique' - I guess you're more used to speaking to people who agree with you eh? - *whoever/whatever * they might be  :santa_afro:).

I think thats a shame, because we can't then explore the nature of opinion or whether it holds up to logical examination... Actually, on one level maybe it does. If you can only polarise your view of those who question your fabulous insight as idiots or lefties, you've told us everything about you that we need to know.

Quote
There is most definitely a 'tone' here - and if you don't fit/agre with that tone, it seems you're viewed as trying to undermine the forum.

Geoff's opinion is merely one. He and I regularly disagree. Go have a look for yourself. I regularly disagree with Simon - and Mellon (and all of us with each other). The same is true all the way across the threads of this forum from numerous contributors. Go read for yourself.

This is maybe another example. I don't think you're trying to undermine the forum. Count me in support on that. However, trying to label any view which points out the falacies of your philosophy as 'leftie' when its so patently obviously untrue does rather invite that thought.

If you manage to unite opinion against, maybe you need to ask yourself why - though I guess a bit of honest introspection isn't something you do very often, is it? Perhaps the most telling conclusion isn't about TS, but about YOU and the views you hold and the justifications with which you defend them.

Just an opinion...

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Chav on December 29, 2010, 07:22:42 pm
Quote
Ah, right, so there are never cliques within cliques. I see. So, any child who goes to a school must automatically just be in the same clique as every other child who goes to that school. Yes, I see your point, that works...

Depends if they go to the same school  :santa_smiley:
Then within that school - they are still unique individuals, as are posters who use TS.

In fact come to think of it - I see schools as communities.

so 20EYEs you have your opinion and I have mine and I respect that  :santa_afro:
I am sure that you will agree that we all have a right to voice our opions be they the same or different in viewpoint !

At the end of the day to agree or disagree, in a group or alone ...... well thats just life !
Its learning to respect the differences of others even if you do not agree.

Happy New Year to you 20EYES  :santa_smiley:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ringer on December 29, 2010, 07:26:47 pm
How could anyone create 'discord' unless that particular poster believes the majority around him/here all think the same way in the first place?

Does anyone on here agree with 20? 
Quote
Frankly, it matters not what any us does or doesn't think. The Council will f**k up whatever and wherever they see fit... which will be any area that coincides with them having any decision to make.
   http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=1026.msg6199#msg6199 (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=1026.msg6199#msg6199)

Does this include Rod Bluh as leader?
 
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: A Mole on December 29, 2010, 07:41:14 pm
Wow!  I actually totally agree with 20Eyes!  See 20Eyes ol' china, I also think Rod Bluh will f*ck-up on every decision that needs to be made too.

You and I are now a clique.  Nice one son ;-)
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 29, 2010, 08:50:40 pm
'Yeah, bloody Bluh, what an arse'?

Happy now?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: James on December 29, 2010, 09:15:48 pm
Personally I think you need the odd bit of grit...so you can make a pearl by covering it until it can no longer cause iritation.

btw, is anyone going to defend Mr Bluh? He must be doing something right, surely?

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 29, 2010, 09:22:07 pm
Nope, got me there.

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: A Mole on December 29, 2010, 10:02:17 pm
Nope, no-one seems to want to defend a narcissistic chartered accountant, embarrassingly out of his depth who is obsessed with "leaving a legacy".  Ironically, it sounds similar to Tony Blair.  Except instead the legacy won't be Iraq, it will be WiFiasco.

Even the pantomime dame, 20Eyes, has gone on record to say he thinks Bluh will f*ck up every decision he makes.  And 20Eyes usually worships out-of-touch, elitist f*cktards.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Des Morgan on December 29, 2010, 10:36:21 pm
Quote
Personally I think you need the odd bit of grit...so you can make a pearl by covering it until it can no longer cause iritation.

The problem is when the grit causes an 'abrasion' which festers and ends up infected
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 29, 2010, 10:42:22 pm
'Will' I think that should be connected with 'has started'. The leader of the council already has a few things under his belt that have gone awry Wifiasco, the platform, the canal, intervention of the Mechanics Institute, Central library, Regents Circus.

AND COMING SOON....

CCTV - "More of your money disappears faster then a greased up Tuna"

Council Talk - "Killing freedom of speech...one word at a time"

106 - "We Should Inform you.....not 'must' " 

Grannies on ice - " A new reality tv show live from swindon "

Sorry I seem to have got caught up in the moment.....it was the heat of the moment....

:santa_azn:
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 29, 2010, 10:44:33 pm
Quote
Personally I think you need the odd bit of grit...so you can make a pearl by covering it until it can no longer cause iritation.

The problem is when the grit causes an 'abrasion' which festers and ends up infected

ewwwww
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 30, 2010, 10:01:27 am
Even the pantomime dame, 20Eyes, has gone on record to say he thinks Bluh will f*ck up every decision he makes.  And 20Eyes usually worships out-of-touch, elitist f*cktards.

Interesting. So, who is it that you think I 'worship' then?

This thread really is highlighting my point about this forum very wonderfully. That none of you appear to realise it makes it all the more delicious.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 30, 2010, 11:07:55 am
Which points that 20?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: A Mole on December 30, 2010, 12:02:43 pm
20Eyes, how have you got the time to post so much on TS?  I know you have that obsessive-compulsive disorder which forces you to try and have the last word but still...(I sympathise as I have a similar compulsion - to highlight what a trolling goonberg you really are) 

See I thought you'd be too busy with all your wandering around Old Town with your clipboard and biro, complaining to the Council about parking spaces....Or did you cure that particular obsessional streak...??
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Tobes on December 30, 2010, 03:00:19 pm
Quote
Interesting. So, who is it that you think I 'worship' then?

The wonderful, balanced and intellectually unchallengable face that gazes out at you from the mirror?

 :santa_grin:

Quote
This thread really is highlighting my point about this forum very wonderfully. That none of you appear to realise it makes it all the more delicious.

Oh, the irony once again. Its a common paradox that the self obesessed have very little self awareness...

 :2funny:

Comon' 20 - come clean - what was your Adver comments section pseudonym?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: 20Eyes on December 30, 2010, 03:00:48 pm
20Eyes, how have you got the time to post so much on TS?  I know you have that obsessive-compulsive disorder which forces you to try and have the last word but still...(I sympathise as I have a similar compulsion - to highlight what a trolling goonberg you really are) 

See I thought you'd be too busy with all your wandering around Old Town with your clipboard and biro, complaining to the Council about parking spaces....Or did you cure that particular obsessional streak...??

Good time management I suppose.
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: A Mole on December 30, 2010, 06:05:34 pm
Well wrap up warm and sharpen that pencil for another of your fascinating complaint letters to the Council eh old bean...
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: A Mole on December 30, 2010, 07:29:04 pm

Comon' 20 - come clean - what was your Adver comments section pseudonym?
[/quote]


It's Mr Blackwell apparently eh 20Eyes aka the Pantomime Troll
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: James on December 30, 2010, 07:49:34 pm
For those who've ben here (TS) a while, should we rename 20eyes as 20Magic?
A not disimilar method of interaction, perhaps?
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Geoff Reid on December 30, 2010, 08:08:23 pm
This thread really is highlighting my point about this forum very wonderfully. That none of you appear to realise it makes it all the more delicious.

No. All this thread shows is that a bunch of people disagree quite strongly with many opinions advanced by 20 Eyes on Talkswindon and 20's subsequent protestations of 'forum cliques' gave me a hearty chuckle. I thank him/her for that although I'm also starting to pity 20 a little.

If the subject matter of this topic is 'delicious', then 20 could be suffering from a rare and debilitiating type of synaesthesia with undertones of paranoia. 

Not licking the monitor might help....  :santa_grin:

Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ben Reid on December 30, 2010, 08:28:57 pm

Comon' 20 - come clean - what was your Adver comments section pseudonym?



It's Mr Blackwell apparently eh 20Eyes aka the Pantomime Troll



I think trying to out members who post under a different name is a fairly useless thing to do as this person 20Eyes has decided that posting under their real name may be harmful to who they are or their profession. If that person cannot post something under their true identity you seriously have to doubt their convictions, in this case 20Eyes is never able to stay on subject without belittling or verbally rampaging others who differ with his opinion.

i have been watching the forum very closely lately but i cam surmise that 20Eyes has some fairly finite views which cannot be debated because he attacks the person who differs from him. your either with him or against him....sounds like the local administration to me, or i could be wrong and he's acting like a cock
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: moley on December 30, 2010, 08:53:46 pm


I think trying to out members who post under a different name is a fairly useless thing to do as this person 20Eyes has decided that posting under their real name may be harmful to who they are or their profession. If that person cannot post something under their true identity you seriously have to doubt their convictions, in this case 20Eyes is never able to stay on subject without belittling or verbally rampaging others who differ with his opinion.


Speaking personally, I don't post under my real name purely in case I accidentally post something that I shouldn't from a work perspective, and because it is clearer that whatever I post is my own opinion and nothing which can be linked back to my employer.  (This is a general rule I follow, not just applicable to TalkSwindon).

It's nothing to do with the strength of my convictions.....

Moley
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Ben Reid on December 30, 2010, 08:58:59 pm


I think trying to out members who post under a different name is a fairly useless thing to do as this person 20Eyes has decided that posting under their real name may be harmful to who they are or their profession. If that person cannot post something under their true identity you seriously have to doubt their convictions, in this case 20Eyes is never able to stay on subject without belittling or verbally rampaging others who differ with his opinion.


Speaking personally, I don't post under my real name purely in case I accidentally post something that I shouldn't from a work perspective, and because it is clearer that whatever I post is my own opinion and nothing which can be linked back to my employer.  (This is a general rule I follow, not just applicable to TalkSwindon).

It's nothing to do with the strength of my convictions.....

Moley

sorry should have said at the beginning of my post 'in the case of 20 Eyes' but thanks for the answer
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mellon on December 30, 2010, 09:23:44 pm

Comon' 20 - come clean - what was your Adver comments section pseudonym?



It's Mr Blackwell apparently eh 20Eyes aka the Pantomime Troll



I think trying to out members who post under a different name is a fairly useless thing to do as this person 20Eyes has decided that posting under their real name may be harmful to who they are or their profession. If that person cannot post something under their true identity you seriously have to doubt their convictions, in this case 20Eyes is never able to stay on subject without belittling or verbally rampaging others who differ with his opinion.

i have been watching the forum very closely lately but i cam surmise that 20Eyes has some fairly finite views which cannot be debated because he attacks the person who differs from him. your either with him or against him....sounds like the local administration to me, or i could be wrong and he's acting like a cock

hypocrite
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Geoff Reid on December 31, 2010, 03:27:21 am

I prefer to post as myself although I think there are many good reasons for adopting a pseudonym when posting opinion/fact on t'internet.

That said, Brizzley hid behind a pseudonym to deliberately and repeatedly put TS in a difficult legal position. Ultimately I believe Brizzley wanted to deny every member of TS the ability to post their opinions on TS, whether from behind pseudonyms or not. 

That, in my book, is a shitty use of a pseudonym.
 
Title: Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
Post by: Mart on December 31, 2010, 02:15:45 pm
The wonderful, balanced and intellectually unchallengable face that gazes out at you from the mirror?

Well, that is a coincidence. Me too!

I use a pseudonym. My name is really Tram.

Oh bugger.

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