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Big Local Issues & Enquiries => Other Consultations and Surveys => Dog Control Orders: SBC Public Consultation => Topic started by: Dougal on May 25, 2007, 01:30:18 pm

Title: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Dougal on May 25, 2007, 01:30:18 pm
(http://www.talkswindon.org/logos/consultations/waggy-250x263.png)


Swindon Borough Council Starts A Six Week Public Consultation On Dog Control Orders Today  (May 25th 2007)


http://www.swindon.gov.uk/latestnews/latestnewsheader/news/newsitemdisplayv2.htm?itemid=85355



The council plans to introduce Dog Control Orders under the Clean Neighbourhood and Environment Act - and members of the public are being invited to give their views before any decisions are made.

The dog control orders provide councils with the power to make dog walkers pick up their pet's faeces in certain areas and dispose of it properly, exclude dogs from designated park areas, and enforce the use of leads in certain parks and other areas.

Once made, if the orders are not complied with, dog walkers could be faced with a fixed penalty of £80 given by the council's enforcement officers.

David Wren, Cabinet Member for Local Environment, said:


Quote from: David Wren
"We need to hear the views of Swindon residents about the proposed Dog Control Orders - we want to make sure we reach the correct decision for Swindon.

"We care about creating an environment where dog lovers and other members of the community can live in safety and harmony. We see this as a way in which everyone can share and enjoy our open spaces.

"The new legislation provides us with an opportunity to update and clarify obsolete byelaws and re-assess other laws. We believe our proposals are reasonable but we need to know what people think of them."





The orders are:

The Fouling of Land by Dogs - This order will require a person in control of a dog to remove faeces deposited from all public spaces in the borough except for agricultural land, marshland, moor, heath, worked woodland and beside any road with a speed limit over 40 mph. However, faeces must be cleared from any defined, surfaced pathway even in these areas.

The Exclusion of Dogs Order - This order will prohibit people taking dogs into any children's play area, cemetery, bowling green or any clearly fenced and signed area stating "no dogs".

The Dogs On Leads Order - This order will require people in control of a dog to keep it on a lead in the following areas: all public roads in the borough and the footpaths, cyclepaths and verges adjacent to these roads; pedestrianised areas on the town centre; Queen's Park; Penhill Park; the Town Gardens; and a designated area at Lydiard Park, which would include the main lawn area around the lake, the cafe and the barbeque field.


There is also an opportunity to identify other locations that may be suitable for dogs on leads.

To take part in the consultation, members of the public can fill in a questionnaire online at www.swindon.gov.uk or pick up an information leaflet and questionnaire from local libraries and council offices.

Alternatively, they can write to Dog Control Orders, Environmental Health, Swindon Borough Council, Premier House, Station Road, Swindon, SN1 1TZ or call 01793 463725 and a leaflet/questionnaire will be sent out which can be returned free of charge.

The council will accept comments in writing only. They must be from persons over the age of 18, and all personal details, such as name and addresses, will remain confidential.


Maps of the affected areas are available for inspection free of charge at Premier House, in Station Road, during the consultation period.


The consultation runs until July 6th . The results are expected to be announced later this year


The Admin Team have been thus far unable to locate the promised online form at www.swindon.gov.uk

Councillor Wrens contact information is publicly availabe here: http://ww2.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgUserInfo.asp?UID=222&J=2

Councillor Wren will shortly be receiving an invitation to visit Talkswindon, (in connection with another project), but members might like to invite him here earlier to discuss the Dog Control Orders consultation.

Talkswindon has not been invited to help Swindon Borough Council with this consulation so members should not assume any comments made on the forum will be taken into account by SBC. The Admin Team will let you know if this situation changes.


Following Information added 23:30 Friday 25th May 2007

SBC Site now updated: Carrying the following information here: http://www.swindon.gov.uk/environment/environment-animal-welfare/dogcontrolorders.htm

Did you read this page before 12:00 on 25th May? If so, please read again as not all the information was up-to-date.

The online questionnaire will be available from next week.

Swindon Borough Council is planning to introduce Dog Control Orders under section 55 of the Clean Neighbourhood and Environment Act 2005. (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2005/50016--i.htm)

The Dog Control Orders (Prescribed Offences and Penalties, etc) Regulations 2006 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20060798.htm), provide for offences which may be prescribed in a dog control order as follows:

    * Not removing dog faeces forthwith
    * Not putting a dog on lead in designated areas
    * Allowing a dog access to designated areas from which they are excluded

Tell Us Your Views

There is a statutory public consultation period from 25 May 2007 to 6 July 2007 during which you can have your say on this matter by completing the questionnaire. There are several ways in which you can access the questionnaire (all of which are free):

    * Use the online questionnaire
    * If you write to us at:
      Dog Control Orders
      Environmental Health
      3rd Floor
      Premier House
      Station Road
      Swindon
      SN1 1TZ

      Please state your name, address and, if possible, your phone number. We will send the questionnaire to you.
    * Download the advice leaflet and reply using the comment form and questionnaire
    * Pick up a leaflet from Council Offices and Libraries (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/dog_control_orders_advice_leaflet.pdf)

Please note we can only accept comments in writing on the questionnaire from persons over the age of 18. If you are not able to write in or if you require it in a different format/language then please call us on 01793 463725. We are unable to accept anonymous comments but we will always respect your confidentiality.

Our Public Notice (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/public_notice.pdf) contains the full details of our intentions.

We hereby invite representations on our proposal to make the following three dog control orders:

The Fouling of Land by Dogs Order (Proposed
) (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_orders_-_fouling_(amended).pdf)

This will require a person in control of a dog to remove faeces deposited forthwith from all public spaces in the borough except for:

    * Agricultural land
    * Marshland/Moor/Heath/Worked Woodland, and
    * Beside any road with a speed limit over 40 mph

However, faeces must be cleared from any defined, surfaced pathway even in these areas (please see FAQs - Fouling of Land) (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/environment/environment-animal-welfare/dogcontrolorders.htm#foulingofland).

The Exclusion of Dogs Order (Proposed)

This order will prohibit people taking dogs into any children’s play area, cemetery, bowling green or other recreational area as long as they are clearly fenced and have a council approved sign stating “no dogs” (please see FAQs - Exclusion).

The Dogs On Leads Order (Proposed) (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_orders_-_dogs_on_lead_(amended).pdf)

This Order will require people in control of a dog to keep it on a lead in these areas:

1. All public roads in the Borough and the footpaths, cyclepaths and verges adjacent to these roads.

2. The pedestrianised areas in the Town Centre

3. Queen’s Park, Penhill Park, The Town Gardens

4. A designated area at Lydiard Park including the main lawn, the area around the lake including the woods to the east, the BBQ/Picnic field, the church drive and verges beside and the area around the visitors centre, in which dogs will have to be kept on lead from 1st April to 30th September from 10am to 6pm. Outside of these times and all day through the wintermonths they may be off lead but under control.

Maps of the affected areas are available for inspection free of charge at Premier House during the Consultation Period or can be down loaded by clicking on the following links; Queens Park (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_area_queens_park.pdf), Penhill Park (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_area_penhill_recreation_ground.pdf), Town Gardens (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_area_town_gardens.pdf), Lydiard Park (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_area_lydiard_park.pdf) (please see FAQs - Dogs on leads (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/environment/environment-animal-welfare/dogcontrolorders.htm#dogsonleads)).

Once these Control Orders are introduced, the current byelaws and Dogs (Fouling of Land Act) 1996 will cease to have affect.

Existing Dog Laws that Remain in Force

All other dog laws will remain unchanged. These include the requirement that all dogs in public places have a collar and tag with the owner’s name and address on it, in accordance with The Control of Dogs Order 1992. See our Dog Law section (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/environment/environment-animal-welfare/dogwarden/environment-animal-dog-law.htm) for further details

Frequently Asked Questions

What is a Dog Control Order?

A dog control order is a new piece of legislation that came into force in 2006 under the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005. (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2005/50016--i.htm) This law was brought in to deal with low-level 'Enviro-crime' and nuisance such as littering, graffiti and dog fouling. The Control Orders will replace the Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996 and the current system of byelaws.

Why do we need Dog Control Orders?

Introduction of Dog Control Orders provides an opportunity to consolidate the many different byelaws as well as the current fouling legislation. This will make compliance of the law easier for dog owners as well as only one department for the public to contact. They also would allow the Council to enforce contraventions by way of fixed penalty notices; only using court prosecutions as a last resort.

What are Fixed Penalty Notices?

Fixed Penalty Notices may be issued when a suitably authorised enforcing officer believes that an offence has been committed and it is appropriate. Fixed penalties can provide enforcement agencies with an effective and visible way of responding to low-level environmental crimes, and the Government wishes to encourage their use by local authorities and other agencies. Experience has shown that the public generally welcome the use of fixed penalties, provided that they are issued sensibly, enforced even-handedly and are as a response to genuine problems. Funds from fixed penalty receipts must be used to support the enforcement area that generated them. The payment would be £80 within fourteen days (or £50 if paid within ten days). Failure to pay the fixed penalty notice will result in legal action being taken against the alleged offender. This action will be taken in the magistrate’s court with a maximum fine of £1000. The actual fine level and awarding of legal costs is at the discretion of the magistrates.

When will the Dog Control Orders start?

We are carrying out a public consultation period until 6 July 2007. The date for the new legislation to become effective will be announced in the press and on our website after this but we hope they will be in place by Late Summer 2007.

What do the Orders mean?

Fouling of Land

This order requires dog owners to clear up after their pets and dispose of the faeces appropriately. Failure to do this in any area that the law applies is an offence

No Dog Fouling

Areas of land that are covered:

    * Pavements
    * Defined, surfaced footpaths
    * Back ways
    * Playing fields (including school playing fields)
    * Parks and recreation grounds
    * Play areas
    * Grass verges
    * Grassed areas in residential areas

Areas of land that are not covered:

    * Agricultural land
    * Woodland that is worked (commercial woodland)
    * Grass verges to roads with a speed limit in excess of 40 mph
    * Private property

Please note: faeces must be removed from tarmac, gravel, sand or other clearly defined, surfaced footpaths that run through the above areas.

Is anyone exempt from picking up?

Anyone who is registered as a blind person or has a registered disability which affects his mobility, manual dexterity, physical co-ordination or ability to lift, carry or otherwise move everyday objects, and has a dog trained by a prescribed charity (listed in the order) (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_orders_-_fouling_(amended).pdf) and upon which he relies for assistance.

There isn’t a dog bin in the area, do I still have to pick up?

Yes! If a dog bin is not available, litterbins are an acceptable way to dispose of dog waste. Please ensure it is double wrapped. If neither is available it must be taken home and disposed of there.

I didn’t see it happen!

As with current fouling legislation, being unaware of the offence is not an excuse.

Its not my dog/I don’t have a bag on me

If you are the person in control of the dog at that time then you are legally responsible for it. Not having a bag to pick up the faeces is also not an excuse; you should always take a bag out with you

There’s a problem with fouling in my area, who do I report it to?

Please e-mail dogwarden@swindon.gov.uk direct, please do not use the control order questionnaire for any other matter.

Exclusion of Dogs Order

Again this applies to whoever is in control of the dog. They must not take the dog onto the following land: - Any children’s play area, cemetery, bowling green, skateboard park, putting green or any other agreed area that is fenced off and clearly signed "Dog Exclusion Area" The sign may be in words but most would be a picture (please see the example, pictured).

Example sign meaning 'no dogs allowed'

New play areas will all be securely fenced and signposted. To take a dog onto such land would be an offence.

Is anyone exempt from this Order?

Anyone who is registered as a blind person or has a registered disability which affects his mobility, manual dexterity, physical co-ordination or ability to lift, carry or otherwise move everyday objects, and has a dog trained by a prescribed charity (listed in the Order ) (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_orders_-_exclusion_(amended).pdf) and upon which he relies for assistance.

Dogs on Leads Order

This will require those in control of a dog to keep it on a lead when walking along a public road anywhere in the borough as well as any footpath, cyclepath, bridleway, pavement and grass verge that run alongside a public road.

This does not apply to:

    * Private Roads (which must be clearly marked as a private road)
    * Public footpath, cyclepath or bridleway that is not adjacent to a public road
    * Public Open Spaces and Parks (except those listed below)

Persons in control of a dog will also have to keep it on lead in the following town parks:

    * Queen’s Park,
    * Town Gardens
    * Penhill Park
    * A designated area at Lydiard Park with specific restrictions between 1 April to 30 September, 10:00 to 18:00.

Maps showing the location of these parks can be viewed at Premier House and at the bottom of this page to download.

The pedestrian area in the Town Centre will also be included in the Control Order requiring dogs to be kept on leads.

There will be signs at the entrances to the parks and the Pedestrian Areas in the Town Centre showing that dogs must be kept on leads. These may be written signs or in picture form (see example, pictured).

Example sign saying 'KEEP DOGS ON LEADS'

The signs at Lydiard Park will also state the times of the day/months of the year that the order applies to.

Failure to put a dog on lead in these areas would be an offence.

Is anyone exempt from this order?

Yes, dogs trained by a prescribed charity upon which the owner relies on for assistance – see the Dogs on Leads Order (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_orders_-_dogs_on_lead_(amended).pdf)  for list of prescribed charities

The order also states that it does not apply if the owner/handler has a “reasonable excuse”. This would be at the discretion of the officer but would usually be acceptable if the dog was being used for working purposes such as:

    * A pack of organised hounds involved in a legal hunt
    * Dogs being used for sporting purposes, e.g. flushing game for lawful shooting
    * Dogs being used for the capture or destruction of vermin with the permission or agreement of the landowner
    * Dogs while being used for the driving or tending of cattle, sheep or other animals
    * Dogs while being used on official duties by a member of Her Majesty's Armed Forces or Her Majesty's Customs and Excise or the police force for any area
    * Dogs while being used in emergency rescue work

I use an extandable lead, is this acceptable?

There are no plans to regulate the type or length of lead required but we do recommend a non-extendable strong lead made from nylon or leather as this gives greater control than the extending leads. Long training leads are available if you wish to run your dog on a longer line.

What about other parks in the town?(eg. The Lawns, St Marks Rec., Faringdon Park, Coate Water etc.)

Only the areas listed are being considered for this order. Dogs may run off lead in the other parks as long as they are kept under control (see Dog Law for details about dogs acting out of control) (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/environment/environment-animal-welfare/dogwarden/environment-animal-dog-law.htm). As part of the consultation you can volunteer other parks that may benefit from this order.

Why do I need to keep my dog(s) on a lead in these areas and not others?

The parks listed in the order are relatively small, some are surrounded by busy roads and all are heavily used by the people who do not own dogs as well as dog owners. It is a way of ensuring that dog lovers and other members of the local community can enjoy the parks together.

Why not keep dogs on leads everywhere in the borough?

It is important for most dogs' physical and mental well-being to have off lead exercise. Many dogs require vigorous exercise that would not be possible on lead and this could therefore compromise their health and behaviour. As stated above, owners/handlers must still keep control of their dogs even when off-lead. Any complaints of dogs acting dangerously out of control should be passed as soon as possible to the police (telephone 0845 4087000) and/or Swindon Borough Council (telephone 01793 466068).

Why is Lydiard Park included in the Order?

In response to many complaints received about dogs acting out of control at Lydiard Park, we have decided to include part of it in the order. The areas covered are those that are exceptionally busy in the Summer months with people having picnics, playing games, sunbathing etc. There are large areas of ground immidiately adjacent to these where dogs can run off lead without disturbing people. The order will also apply to the times when the main lawn etc. is commonly used - i.e. during the summer months and at peak times. Also, Lydiard Park is a National Heritage Site and is actively managed at thiese times with specific events being being held in these areas (e.g. Party in the Park, theatre performances).

Further Information

Further national guidance is available using the following links:

    * The Dog Control Order (Procedures) Regulations 2006 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20060798.htm)
    * Defra Guidance on Dog Control Orders (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2005/50016--i.htm)

Documents Available for Downloading

Public Notice (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/public_notice-2.pdf)

Proposed Control Order Fouling on Land (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_orders_-_fouling_(amended)-2.pdf)

Proposed Control Order Dogs Exclusion (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_orders_-_exclusion_(amended)-2.pdf)

Proposed Control Order Dogs On Leads (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_orders_-_dogs_on_lead_(amended)-2.pdf)

Map of Control Area Queens Park (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_area_queens_park-2.pdf)

Map of Control Area Town Gardens (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_area_town_gardens-2.pdf)

Map of Control Area Penhill Park (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_area_penhill_recreation_ground-2.pdf)

Map Of Lydiard Park (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/control_area_lydiard_park-2.pdf)

 
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 25, 2007, 02:52:40 pm
Nope....I can't find the online form either.

Q: If SBC are only accepting submissions in writing, where do 'online' form fit in legally?, they're obviously not signed by the individual who submits the  form....

I wonder whether SBC would accept submissions by the Talkswindon survey site, if its the submissions include name, address and email address?, if so TS could help this consultation along quite a bit.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consulation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: kecl on May 25, 2007, 03:11:40 pm

While, if this goes ahead after consultation it will be a good thing, the problem is all the new orders, rules, laws or whatever are only as good as the enforcement that goes with it. Enforcement is one department that from my experience lacks the backbone to carry it out. :bash:

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consulation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Jarvis on May 25, 2007, 03:33:54 pm
Only if the consultation is actually a proper consultation and not simply a fig-leaf to cover a pre-determined policy outcome kecl.

I have some immediate issues with this SBC 'consultation'.

1. 6 weeks is noooooowhere near long enough to consult the public.

2. David Wren is single-handedley responsible for foisting an unneccessary council tax increase on Swindonians....just when the cabinet had agreed upon the budget he, in his role as vice chairman of the fire authority, voted against his colleagues in cabinet and added 1% to the fire authorities precept. What did this mean to our council tax bill?....about £16 a year for band D and £10.20 a year for band C houses. Average those figures across approximately 58,000 houses in the borough and we're talking a lorra, lorra money.

This was odd behaviour from Councillor Wren, especially when you consider that the Fire Authority didn't actually manage to spend it's budget last year.

3. Councillor Wren was all for 'Chipping' wheelie bins in the Borough, (as preparatory work for 'pay as you throw' waste charging), and only appeared to back down after being challenged by several Conservative Councillors.

From what I can gather Councillor Wren has a delightful habit of happily adopting Central Government, (i.e Labour), policies and trying to slip them through quietly and without proper scrutiny.

There's no harm in examining dog ownership and the manner of exercising them, providing it's examined in a fair and transparent manner. I have no confidence that this consultation will be either fair or transparent, its time frame is just too damned short for starters.


The manner in which this consultation has been unveiled, rolled out or however you'd like to describe it, is worryingly similar to the way New Labour 'consult' the public. Perhaps this is a habit Councillor Wren dragged with him when he crossed the floor from the Labour Party?.

I'd like to be involved in any campaign to get the consultation period extended to sensible time period, e.g six months to a year, (look at the residents parking consultation, about a year old and still going), and publicised/promoted in such a way as to attract and invite opinion from every corner of the Borough.

Standing outside Debenhams on every Friday for the next six weeks and advertising an online form which doesn't seem to exist is NOT consulting the public Councillor Wren.

Councillor Wrens email address is d.wren1@ntlworld.com  and I would urge both members of Talkswindon and guest viewers to email him directly and get the timeframe of this consultation extended.

I'll also be emailing/phoning my own Councillors to discuss this, and see whether they are prepared to exert some pressure to get the consultation period extended to something sensible.

Admin note: post edited at the request of the member to correct a typo. (members self-edit time had elapsed)
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consulation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: kecl on May 25, 2007, 04:17:38 pm
Only if the consultation is actually a proper consultation and not simply a fig-leaf to cover a pre-determined policy outcome kecl.

Agreed, I was thinking on a personal level.

Living with a dog boutique at the back of my property, the path at the side of my house and the alley ways are a toilet for many of the pampered pooches. It never ceases to amaze me at the amount of people who are outraged if you dare to have a quiet word with them about cleaning their dogs mess up or asking them why they feel it is ok to let their dog piss on my back gate,  because funnily enough, by the rules of physics, gravity allows it to flow into my back yard.


Quote
I'll also be emailing/phoning my own Councillors to discuss this, and see whether they are prepared to exert some pressure to get the consultation period extended to something sensible.

Not much chance of being able to ask at least one of the Central Councillors to do this, as she is Mrs Wren. This is the same Mrs Wren who also by 'coincidence'  thinks it is quite acceptable for everyone in terraced houses to have a wheelie bin.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Dougal on May 25, 2007, 05:23:51 pm
We understand that the online questionaire will look like this.


Order 1: Fouling of land


              Questionaire Statement                                                                                         Allowed Answers
The areas of land covered by the order are acceptable                                                 Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
The areas excluded from the order are acceptable                                                     Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this






Order Two - Exclusion of Dogs from Land
              Questionaire Statement                                                                                                        Allowed Answers
The areas described in the order where dogs will be prohibited are acceptable               Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this






Order Three - Keeping of dogs on leads
              Questionaire Statement                                                                                                        Allowed Answers
It is a good idea for dogs to be on lead next to a road                                                       Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
It is acceptable for dogs to be kept on lead in:
1. Queen's Park                                                                                                           Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
2. Faringdon Park                                                                                                         Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
3. Town Gardens                                                                                                         Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
4. The pedestrian area in the Town Centre                                                                       Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
5. Penhill Park                                                                                                              Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
6. At certain times: a designated area at Lydiard park including the main lawn
BBQ field, visitors centre and the woods to the east of the lake                                             Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
It is fair for dogs to be on leads in the stated area at Lydiard Park between:
1st April and 30th September each year from 10am to 6pm                                                   Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this




              Questionaire Statement                                                                                                        Allowed Answers
Are there other Parks or Areas in Swindon that you feel would benefit from this order?                      A comment box is provided here





              Questionaire Statement                                                                                                        Allowed Answers
The orders are a good idea                                                                                              Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this



We do not yet have an example of the 'on the street' version being offered in the town centre or supporting maps/documents detailing exact areas.

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: rob-magic on May 25, 2007, 08:47:16 pm
I am aligned with your aproach Jarvis, and would like to add the perspective of the increase of laws and restrictions being pushed through the system to reach us all, to now include an official interference and policing strategy involving the time spent with man's best friend. Another fundraiser and attack on freedom legalised, like speed cameras, speed humps.

Sure, nobody wants to see mess everywhere but is £79.99 a fair jump from number one (spending a penny) to number two?

A heavy handed attempt at a solution if you ask me. What about the owners having to give up some time (like an hour or two) instead?

Fines only affect the poor.

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Alligator on May 25, 2007, 09:28:27 pm
I welcome this consulation but agree that 6 weeks is too short.  It's difficult to comment on the quality of the questionnaire without seeing the maps etc, but in general I support the council's approach and also the need for some form of penalty on lazy dog owners, after all they're the only ones that need to worry about this...I just hope that it's not toothless and there will be people to enforce this.

the health consequences of dog shite are quite disturbing and there's nothing worse than walking in it.   >:(
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consulation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Alligator on May 25, 2007, 09:30:55 pm
Not much chance of being able to ask at least one of the Central Councillors to do this, as she is Mrs Wren. This is the same Mrs Wren who also by 'coincidence'  thinks it is quite acceptable for everyone in terraced houses to have a wheelie bin.

Well she'll be more interested in North Swindon, after all that's where her political future lies....I don't think she ever really understand the issues of Central residents, so roll on April 2008 when we can say good riddance to her.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Lynda on May 25, 2007, 10:36:24 pm

I am missing a piece of intelligence: what constitutes a consultation?

The six week survey in the town centre is, I assume, part of the consultation process not the whole of it. What does the rest comprise of?


Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: tig on May 25, 2007, 11:22:32 pm
 I think they are being very cleaver with this, most people including responsible dog owners would agree with clearing up after their dogs, but not with the other two points.  i can't help but notice that most responces on here have reffered to the dog poo issue and not the other two, now if this is what happens generally over the 6 weeks then the result will be seen as all 3 should be inforced were actually most will be commenting on the poo and not the exclusion of dogs and keeping them on leads. by inforcing the last two could see more agresive dogs as they are not getting the nessary exercise. the poo issue should be delt with separate to the ohers.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Jess on May 25, 2007, 11:34:39 pm
I am aligned with your aproach Jarvis, and would like to add the perspective of the increase of laws and restrictions being pushed through the system to reach us all, to now include an official interference and policing strategy involving the time spent with man's best friend. Another fundraiser and attack on freedom legalised, like speed cameras, speed humps.

Sure, nobody wants to see mess everywhere but is £79.99 a fair jump from number one (spending a penny) to number two?

A heavy handed attempt at a solution if you ask me. What about the owners having to give up some time (like an hour or two) instead?

Fines only affect the poor.



Rob-Magic - yes, better to get the owners of shite machine to empty dog-do bins for a couple of saturdays.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: James on May 25, 2007, 11:48:37 pm
Quote
The six week survey in the town centre is
...
Going to miss a lot of dog owners, as they will be walking their dogs...

James
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 26, 2007, 12:26:38 am
I think they are being very cleaver with this,

I wouldn't call it clever, I'd call it arrogant.

This 'consultation' is described as being a 'statutory six week consultation'.  Six weeks isn't long enough, nor is the 'questionaire' designed to do anything other than funnel the respondent into reponding in a positive fashion to the proposals.....which aren't really 'proposals' at all. In the mind of David Wren the proposals are already a reality.

The key to this style of consulation is in the first three letters of the word. It is a CONsultation.

Fundamentally there several good points in the 'proposals'......it's probably not a good idea to have loose dogs running around the town centre, next to highways and across the lawns at Lydiard Park on a Sunday afternoon when people are enjoying a picnic.  I know I wouldn't entertain letting our three mutts do any of the above.

But.....apart from vague reference to 'many complaints', what's the empiral data being offered to support the need for blanket laws?.  What is appropriate for Old Town Gardens may not be appropriate, or needed for Lydiard Park.

Haven't we already got laws for Dog Fouling?....£1,000 fine if I'm not mistaken, how many prosecutions have there been in the borough for dog fouling offences in the last 12 months?, is the law even being enforced currently, if not, why not...and what will make these new laws more effective?.

How many incidents of dog bites and dog fights have there been in the last 5 years?.

I'm a dog owner and I have no problem at all with a borough-wide consultation on what the non-dog owning population expect from me, and what I expect from the borough in return for my responsible behaviour....

....but I do have a problem with a faux-consultation.

Like the Identity Cards Act 2006 I believe Dog Control Orders are being introduced without empirical evidence to support the claims being made to justify their imposition.

I'm not denying for a moment that central might have a dog shite problem.....but Lydiard certainly doesn't, in fact you'll often see dog owners picking up fox shit, (dirty disgusting smelly stuff that it is), because they don't want da townies mistakenly identifying it as Pekinese Poo and blaming dog owners.   

No one likes Dog poo on pavements....it's a fact...and it's possible that no one hates it more than the vast majority of decent dog owners. It reflects badly on all of us.

Dog control orders and this CONsultation don't allow for any separation of the various issues, they are all or nothing.

Jarvis was onto something with his remarks about David Wren....his socialist roots are showing through...and this is the third time since I moved to Swindon that his name has been attached to a scheme being handled in a Nu Labour fashion.

1. Chipped wheelie bins....only halted by the swift and passionate intervention of his cabinet colleague.

2. Central must have Wheelie bins....despite most of centrals residents quite reasonably voicing opposition to Cllr Wrens plan.

...and now this.

Lets see what develops, but I'd be surprised if this consultation goes as smoothly as he undoubtedly hopes.

God knows it doesn't deserve to.

 
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Tobes on May 26, 2007, 01:23:54 am
This is an example of CLASSIC spin.

Invent a problem, a classic potential folk devil - ie 'out of control dogs' - propose a solution, 'consult' (selectively) with the public, using a loaded questionaire, an unrepresentative sample in an unrepresentative area - and an impossibly short timescale (which as James so eloquently expresses, does not target dog owners for starters!)... then using potentially skewed results and in a fanfare of 'we're helping YOU' publicity, wheel out a 'solution', which as usual is characterised by YET ANOTHER set of authoritarian rules which will be imposed by jobsworths wielding a revenue generating system of fines...

Its positively Snelgrovian - just like the issue of mini-motos, the solutions already exist under statute: Its already against the law to leave your pooches uncollected crap on the pavement (just like we already have rules regarding MOTs, driving licenses, road tax and insurance to target the mini-motos). Once again, we have exitsting rules which simply aren't being enforced. But hey, lets just rubber stamp a whole new bunch of bylaws - and get the council tax payers to fund a new team of 'dog spys'!

As for regarding every dog as some sort of out of control killing machine, thats the stuff of overly protective paranoid dog-o-phobics. Come back Dwokin with her theory that every man is an inherent rapist! I mean, come on: we've been living quite happily with dogs in urban environments for hundreds of years: Dog owners are part of the community - and animal welfare demands that just as they should be responsible about their charges, so should their dogs have the right to run free within public spaces. Should dog owners be responssible? Yes. Does anyone like dog poo? No. Are any of these things any worse than they've been in the past? No. But lets not extent some sensible tollerance and let that get in the way  of another council department, some more employees and some nice headlines involving the phrase 'cracking down'! Honestly, the farting aboiut of some of them is going to diminish the good work that others have done of things like tackling taggers!

From what I understand, given the population of Swindon, any incidents involving dogs and the public rare - serious incidents are incredibly rare. As there's no groundswell of lobbying or opinion on this issue either way, it would seem that someone somewhere is doing a pretty good job of trying to create one. It wouldn't be the self same people who are sitting on a ready made soultion, courtesy of those sponsors of authoritarianism in central government, would it perchance? Is it cooincidental that the Adver featured a ridiculously overblown story a few weeks back about some woman who's daughter was accidentally knocked over (but apparently completely unharmed) by a boisterous dog? (presumably, she would like to see the same restrictions applied to exhuberant kids and see them permanently muzzeled and reigned in public too?)

I'm disturbed that Wrens name is apparently associated with yet another policy which appears to have had its roots in Labour. HE has socialist roots? Is this true? His public views on the forthcoming stink-a-thon acertainly seem to have provided the bedrock for potentially believing that link. This sort of things is just the icing on the cake. Why have the tories given him such a high profile role, when he apparently seems so concerned with applying the guidance of central government?
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: swindon lad on May 26, 2007, 05:39:57 am
Jarvis was onto something with his remarks about David Wren....his socialist roots are showing through...and this is the third time since I moved to Swindon that his name has been attached to a scheme being handled in a Nu Labour fashion.

1. Chipped wheelie bins....only halted by the swift and passionate intervention of his cabinet colleague.

2. Central must have Wheelie bins....despite most of centrals residents quite reasonably voicing opposition to Cllr Wrens plan.

...and now this.

Lets see what develops, but I'd be surprised if this consultation goes as smoothly as he undoubtedly hopes.

God knows it doesn't deserve to.

 

IMHO David Wren is the most effective Labour Cllr - seems to be introducing as much unpopular Labour legislation under the cover of being a Tory in Swindon as he can!

I do have a lot of time for Rod Bluh as leader of SBC but I think he's been done here...

Lucky for the Tories that neither Kevin Small's ever reducing band of followers have the ability David Wren has.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Jarvis on May 26, 2007, 06:20:32 pm


Why aren't existing by laws being properly enforced?.

Dog owners are already required to pick up their dogs droppings, (and most of them do), and if they don't the penalty is either £500 or £1,000 isn't it?.

The dog control orders carry a much lower penalty...£80. Why?....if a really ignorant and inconsiderate owner won't scoop da poop to avoid a £1,000 fine, why would £80 worry them?.

Why don't SBC try enforcing the existing laws for a while before rushing to implement every last little bit of the Clean Neighbourhoods and environment Act 2005?

Many of the anti-dog brigade might be surprised where implementing section 55 (dog control orders) will lead. What will the enforcement officers be doing when there's no poochs pooing on their patch?, they'll be watching, and fining, everyone else for any other offences under the Act, that's what.

 

 
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Tobes on May 26, 2007, 07:32:12 pm
We seem to be living in an age where we are developing TWO police forces - one which concentrates on statute - and another more insudious one, devised to implement local government bylaws and which manages council parking, and the enforcement of local bureacracy. The danger with the council 'pseudo police' is that they have to show something of a financial return for their efforts - to balance budgets, they have to be essentually self-funding through the fines they place. The argument will be that they don't make a profit - but all of these new 'forces' seem most definately to concentrate on activity which generates an efficient return - which then justifies their continued existance. I guess thats why the parking nazis can justify sticking tickets in a quiet residential street at 6.30 in the morning - but you won't EVER see one doing the same on a Sunday.

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: rob-magic on May 27, 2007, 03:12:35 am
Perfect Jess!
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Triumph on May 28, 2007, 12:13:31 am
 :( :(

I have to agree with previous postings that this all this has the hallmark of a New Labour initiative and I thought we had a
Conservative Administration in Swindon, still I could be wrong!! :WTF:

This is yet another example of ten years of 'sticking plaster legislation' which will be on the statute books but will be UNENFORCEABLE AND NOT SUPPORTED BY THE COMMUNITY IT IS SUPPOSED TO SERVE.  Or is this more sinister in as much that it is designed to raise funds for the council's coffers?

Surely it would be more effective to invoke the legislation that is in place, LEGLISLATION THAT PRODUCED A SUCCESSFUL PROSECUTION OF THE PRINCESS ROYAL WHEN HER DOG ATTACKED A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC. 

Point made I think!!

And while we are about it if the police cannot attend to burgleries and criminal damage why should we dissipate an already ineffective police force by adding to their legal responsibilites?

Just get on with dealing with the reported £8,000,000 worth of Grafitti first, Council - you have an awful long way to go to remove Swindon's reputation of being the Grafitti capital of the South West!! 

And you could also empty the overflowing and replace wrecked doggy bins while you are about it!!

I wonder if the Lib Dems have an opinion on this subject? - They are obviously being deflected elsewhere like trying to justify their lack of interest and attendence of the Scrutiny Conference or was that because Stan 'the man' Pajak wasn't given the Chair of Scrutiny having expressed interest in it?



Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Tobes on May 29, 2007, 12:30:13 pm
Well, the results of the 'con-sultation' are already being trumpeted ! Read here - http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/swindonnewsheadlines/display.var.1430248.0.putting_the_bite_on_dogs.php

Apparently -

Quote
A TOWN-WIDE consultation over whether dog control orders should be enforced has been met with a positive response from residents, according to the cabinet member behind the proposals.

That person is of course Labour Con-servative councillor Wren (he of the forthcoming stinking bins). Isn't it quite impressive that the Adver story is dated the 28th of May - AND THE WHOLE CONSULTATION ONLY STARTED ON THE 25TH? They've reached a pretty impressive conclusion after four days of commentary, have they not?  O0

Well, if anyone wants to express their opinion regarding an obviously spun campaign which appears to have reached its already foregone conclusion, we're told we can do so at http://www.swindon.gov.uk/latestnews/latestnewsheader/news/newsitemdisplayv2.htm?itemid=85355. People can also send comments in writing to: Dog Control Orders, Environmental Protection, Premier House, Station Road, Swindon SN1 1TZ.

Here's a classic from the piece:

Quote
The Exclusion Of Dogs order would ban dogs from children's play areas, cemeteries, bowling greens, skateboard parks or anywhere with a no dogs' sign.

... so what's the point of the 'No Dogs' signs already in existance then??? Crass stupidity. Still no info regarding who is supposed to police these additional regulations...

Interestingly, one of the participants on the Swindon Adver chat board claims that original sponsor of the motion, councillor Glaholm, has alrdeady stated in public that his wife is terrified of dogs... Hmmm...   ??? Anyone else able to dig out the source of this rumour and comment on its veracity?

INTERESTINGLY given the proposals heritage, if Mr Wren is really interested about the environment, it would seem a little odd that the online questionaire is apparently unavailable, necessitating the printing off of the Adobe version of the form. In turn, when printing on A4 (as most of us will) - the size of the boxes for comments are 5mm x 85mm. Irony aside regarding the extra paperwork, regarding the 'value' of our comments, it looks like their ears and eyes are wide closed once again.

Perusing the site, you'll note than Swindon currently has a grand total of ONE dog enforcement officer. Guess he/she will have their work cut out when this is inevitably passed! That 'leads', if you'll pardon the pun, me back to my earlier comments about enforcement, who will do it, and more importantly, how it will be funded.

Interestingly again, even the briefest of views tell the reader that provisions aare ALREADY in place for most of the areas that this new and pointless piece of bureaucrasy seeks to address: http://193.113.179.211/environment/environment-animal-welfare/dogwarden/environment-animal-dog-law.htm

On fouling, we already have:  http://193.113.179.211/environment/environment-animal-welfare/dogwarden/dogfouling.htm

The point is that most of the public are unaware that a bit chunk of what is being proposed is ALREADY covered.

 If there is a reason to ensure dogs in parks near children's playing areas need to be kept on leads for the purposes of 'safety' - lets have access to some statistics. So far, all the Adver can do is re-quote the mauling to death of a swan - a further irony, given that swans themselves can be dangerous to the public (but their owner, The Queen has so far excaped legislation making her responsible for the picking up of their guano!)

So, there you have it. An ill conceived, ill considered and (so far) ill consulted waste of tax payers and council time - time which ought to be spent addressing serious issues, not flirting with the media.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 29, 2007, 03:30:33 pm
Well put Tobes.

I spoke with Cllr Peter Greenhalgh, (one of my ward councillors), about this the other day and I'm pleased to report he's happy to relay his ward residents opinions to the cabinet.

Members of the public can also attend the SBC cabinet meeting, and put questions directly to the cabinet on Wednesday June the 6th at 6pm in the Council Chamber at Euclid Street.

TS Calendar entry here: http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=1883.msg10262#msg10262

I'll be going alone to ask the very questions posted within this thread..... I hope others will also attend.

Residents of Freshbrook and Grange Park can email their Councillors at these email addresses:

Cllr Mick Bray BrMicha454@aol.com

Cllr Michael Dickinson mdickinson@swindon.gov.uk

Cllr Peter Greenhalgh PGreenhalgh@swindon.gov.uk

You can find complete contact details for other ward Councillors here http://ww2.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgMemberIndex.asp?bcr=1

If you are concerned that existing bylaws aren't being properly implemented, and that an unneccessary and expensive consultation is being performed at your expense without proper justification....let your councillor know!  I am.

 

 
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Raven on May 29, 2007, 03:57:32 pm

Ve could create a zeries ov areas vere civilians excercise zeir animals, modelled along zee lines of  Stalag Vidgeway, vich as you know is a high security zone. Zees medium security areas zat ve could call "open facilities" vould still be under our ultimate control and observation by ze uus ov our SS "Swindon Stormtroopers". Zere deployment vould be best employed if zese areas vere also surrounded by razor vire wiz limited aczess points. At zese points armed divizions vould interrogate vor possezion ov zecure restraintz zus ensuring ze animalz vould not breach freedom controlz. Upon violation ov zees regulations, internment campz stalags I, II, III & IV vould be uzed vor extermination of beastz, and zee civilianz vould be issued viz penalty notizes and zere identity cardz vithdrawn until penance haz veen extracted. All informazionz vould ve kept on vile and ve held vor diztribuzion to agenziez vor zee purpoze ov vithdrawing credit vacilities and zee establishment ov council tax levvies zus unsuring zee masterz can ultimately rule ze vorld.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 29, 2007, 05:39:36 pm
 
 ;D
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 29, 2007, 06:24:42 pm


http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2005/50016--i.htm

It seems that section 55 (Dog Control Orders) of the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 goes a bit farther than SBC's consultation admits to.

When implemented, section 55 replaces all other bye-laws dealing with the fouling of land, exlusion of and control of dogs.

Section 55 also allows the Council to lawfully limit:

 
Quote from:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2005/50016--i.htm
the number of dogs which a person may take on to any land

No mention of that in the Advertisers coverage or David Wrens faux consultation eh?

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Triumph on May 30, 2007, 07:28:36 pm
 :D

Well Raven methinks I've seen this somewhere before!!

 :D

and Cruella will get her spotty dogs after all, if they ever dare visit Swindon again.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on June 01, 2007, 11:25:50 am
I'm wondering whether SBC are deliberately confusing information with consultation.

If the decision to implement Dog Control orders has already been taken then whatever happens next can only be ‘for information’.

Consultation should only take place when there is still a real decision to be made based on a choice between different possible courses of action.

Some may see this confusion as desirable. However, implying choice when in reality the matter is closed does no one any favours (especially politicians).

The public are increasingly media savvy and can smell a CON-sultation when they see one. Scrutiny and audit requirements mean that if consultation is deemed to be of insufficient quality, there is a high risk that authorities will have to rip it up and start again.

It is best to be honest and open. If there is no will or no space to consult then just say so.

I'm also concerned about a 'consultation' I participated in earlier this week with the SBC ASBO team in the town centre.  During the 'consultation' I was asked whether anything concerned me in the Town centre....

....."Drunk adults at weekends" says I.  To which the ASBO guy writes "Drunk youths" on his consultation paper.

I tell him: "That's not what I said.......please remove 'youths', I said 'adults'...."

This wasn't what the guy wanted to hear, because he inserted the term 'youths' a further couple of times into both the conversation and onto the consultation paper. Each time I had to re-iterate that he was putting words into my mouth, and recording statements innaccurately.

At no time was I asked my name or address.

What is the value of these on-street 'consultations' exactly?, surely without names and addresses being recorded the papers themselves are legally nothing more than hear-say.

After examining the content of the Dogs Control Orders consultation, and my experience with the ASBO team 'consultation', I have serious and grave doubts about the way in which SBC is 'consulting' on various issues.

Where to go next?.....is there any point attending a cabinet meeting and raising these points, or have the decisions already been taken and the consultations are a complete money wasting sham?
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on June 01, 2007, 11:51:12 am

Further to the above:

I have good reason to believe that council officers are already receiving 'enforcement' training to prepare them for issuing £80 on the spot fines.

If this is true, as I'm sure it is, why would SBC be spending money on enforcement training prior to a genuine consultation being concluded?.

Perhaps our Councillor members would like to make their own enquiries regarding enforcement training and confirm whether my understanding is correct.

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: James on June 01, 2007, 12:05:34 pm
Quote
Scrutiny and audit requirements mean that if consultation is deemed to be of insufficient quality, there is a high risk that authorities will have to rip it up and start again.


I don't think there is any doubt that the questions on the survey were rather bias. Any genuine pollster would have laughed at their obviousness.

Quote
It is a good idea for dogs to be on lead next to a road
is going to get a very positive responce as it is a good idea. Few would argue with that.
However the REAL question is
Quote
Should dog onwers be REQUIRED to have their dogs on a lead next to a main road
A very very different question.


James
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: rob-magic on June 01, 2007, 04:40:56 pm
James,

Well done for highlighting this example of psycology being used on the unsuspecting public.

This process of thinking is very important and proves very informative and enlightening time and time again. Carry on.

It would seem obvious, but c'mon, how many times have you been looking for your sunglasses or hat when you are wearing them or keys when you are holding them?

Good lad.

 8)
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Woodchopper on June 02, 2007, 01:43:55 pm


Hi everyone, i've been enjoying reading the posts as a guest but then this thread got me going!...so to speak.

Don't you think that as it would appear the decision has already been taken we invite our illustrious and noble Council Leader Roderick Bluh to deny it in our 'Council Chamber'?  He will have to comment as it would otherwise prove that decisions are being taken in Cabinet without the due democratic process being followed? 

and despite training what is an enforcement officer going to do with a dog walker who refuses to identify him or herself?   Follow them until they eventually go home, I don't think so?  Just another means of creating antagonism between the public and council officials, I suggest.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: tig on June 02, 2007, 05:19:27 pm
This morning i went for my morning walk around lydiard Park and i would like to point out some observations i made,

no dog poo to be seen anywere, most dogs were on leads around the lawn and park area and enjoying their run in the fields beyond the events field. So this tells me that most dog owners are responsible.

How ever i did count 43 single items of rubbish on the grounds, mainly on the lawn, playarea, and driveway, mainly crisp packets, sweet wrapers and cans.

so this would be no fines for dog owners and 43 £80 other fines. So to make this work financally SBC will need to create new rules for dog owners to break (like the lenght of lead, no dog areas, how many dogs one person can walk, and under this section 55 they can do all of these and more) or have the enforcers trained in targeting all different types of offences like littering or both.

Let's be realistic here this is just a money making scheme it has nothing to do with dog control, the by laws are already there for were a dog can be off the lead, clearing of poo and no dog areas.

someone said to me it's like dog asbos but i soon pointed out that children have to offend first to get an asbo, this is slapping an asbo on all dog owners before an offence has happened due to a few irisponsible dog owners. I tell you what lets slap asbos on all 10-17 year olds for anti soical behaviour due to the few that comit this offence.

I would rather see the council be honest and say we have found a way of making money then hiding behind this act.

i would like to know how may street cleaners will be out of work once the enforcers are tackling the issue of litter  ???
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on June 07, 2007, 12:03:43 am
Update:

Also blogged here: http://www.blogswindon.org/?p=17

Tonight I wandered along to the cabinet open forum and had a little chat.....

Quote
Fionuala Foley (Chair) ....we'll start with Geoff Reid

Me: " Thanks, good evening....as you said, it's to do with dog control orders, [my question], did the cabinet unanimously agree on the wording of the dog control orders public consultation questionaire, and does it believe the questionaire to be flawless?"

Fionuala Foley: " I'll start by saying the issue of dog control orders came to cabinet a number of months ago and was deferred because we weren't happy with the wording, it came back to us as further amended with a park taken out that was going to be subject to the restrictions. Having a discussion about whether we did it to be flawless, I'll let David Wren come in, he was the cabinet lead member of this service area so I'll ask David to comment while Steve Harcourt is here, so I'm quite sure between David and Steve... Daviod would you like to start?"

David Wren: " Yeah, Hi. Can I just confirm that this is the actual questionaire as opposed to the proposal for the dog orders?"

Geoff Reid: " Yes. The questionair that you put out to the public, yeah. The one you want the public to contribute to and send back to yourselves"

David Wren: " Thank you, I understand. The actual wording of any questionaire I think you can never say is flawless, it depends where you're coming from, but if there is anything you want to make a comment on...that you don't think is covered in any of those questions, I think it is quite in order that anybody could just write a missive on the back of the form....but as to whether it's flawless it all depends on which angle you're coming in from.

Peter Greenhalgh: " Is it flawless?, no....is the simple answer, very few of our questionaires are.  I think this one, if you're a dog owner, is.....appears very biased. For example, it doesn't actually ask whether you are a dog owner as a respondee, so no, it's not flawless so if David doesn't mind I can quite happily give you his email address and any comments that you, or anyone else has, that you wish to make, will be forwarded to him. Obviously we can discuss that, at cabinet, when the decision actually comes, on whether or not to implement it.

David Wren: " Yes, I'd just like to say that we have had comments from dog owners and non dog owners and views are different, so I'm not quite sure whether it's relevent whether or not you're a dog owner to how you answer the survey or whether you are a dog owner, but [I'm] more than happy to answer any questions....consultations are out there, you'll find my email details on the website so I'm happy to take any comments which will be feedback as part of that consultation process."

Geoff Reid: " Thank you....can I ask another question?.....has the decision to implement section 55 already been taken by cabinet, or is this a real consultation?"

David Wren: "Right, if I can give you some background.....this started off because a councillor brought this up as a motion at full council.  We are obliged as cabinet to take that forward, and that's what we're doing....so we are going out to consultation. Cabinet are actually devided on this so it's not a forgone conclusion...so we will be looking at the consultation replies...so we will be discussing and making a decision and giving a recommendation to council on that consultation."

Geoff Reid: " I've nearly finished...sorry to everyone else." [waiting to ask questions]

Fionuala Foley: " Fine, you've got three minutes, it's fine."

Geoff Reid: " Will the cabinet then......are you saying that the cabinet agrees to a full council debate on this....including a free vote, which would have to be on the 19th of July at the next full council meeting, or do you intend to take this decision as a cabinet in your cabinet meetingon the 25th of July...six days later.?"

David Wren: Normally, if there's a financial....um, if there's finances concerned cabinet make the decision, that's why it's come to cabinet instead of full council. We've already discussed whether or not we'll have a free vote, as to whether cabinet decide it goes back to full council....."

Councillor Foley interrupts.....

Fionuala Foley: ".... Can I, yes I'll just check with Stephen, [Stephen Taylor - The Borough Solicitor], my understanding of this...[Stephen Taylor gives some advice to the chair].....because this action came out of a question....a motion at full council by Councillor Glaholm, it will go back to full council."

Geoff Reid: " Excellent, thank you. That answers my question."
[/color]

At least there is now the possibility of a discussion in the chamber regarding this.  I'm not sure it would have happened automatically without giving the cabinet a little nudge....it certainly seems that David Wren, before Councillor Foley interrupted him, was about to say it would be a cabinet decision.

I had three supplementary questions which I didn't have time to ask.....I'll save those for the next full council meeting.

Before i left I had a chat with Steve Harcourt, [SBC officer], who confirmed my understanding that Swindon Borough Council is under no legal pressure to adopt section 55 of the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005....it is entirely optional.  As David Wren said, it has gone out to consultation because one councillor proposed a motion to adopt section 55, another one seconded it and then a majority of the councillors voted the motion to adopt through......

.....happily voting to adopt legislation that they, in all likelihood hadn't actually read through.   

The long watch continues....... 

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Jarvis on June 07, 2007, 10:43:52 am

Cool. Good to see that the consultation/consideration/discussion and vote will be taken at full council and not in some committee room by just 8 people.

Good notes, were you taking shorthand notes?.

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Woodchopper on June 08, 2007, 11:53:56 am
Well folks, I find your Cabinet Consultation meeting very worrying fluff fluff er more fluff and confusion - it sounds just like our Labour government to me -oh I've got an idea and I want to change everything to give the illusion we are making progress, oh its not working so we will change it again

Sounds as though this administration has lost its way!!

What about the civil order problems in the centre of town and what are the Police doing about it?
What about the Grafitti and Fly tipping all over town?
What about the Traffic Problems/Chaos -  just go to Chippenham if you want to see how bad it is here.?....
How many Civil Court Cases has Stephen Taylor brought for the recovery of costs against the perpetrators of criminal damage to council property? -  following Peter Mallinson's Motion before Council

and all you can do is talk about Dog Orders - I despair!!

and what's our wonderful opposition got to say about it?- absolutely nothing and you wonder why nobody takes any notice of local politics!!




Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Tobes on June 08, 2007, 12:54:09 pm
Eh oop woodchopper. Got to agree with much of what you've said - though I don't really see what much extra else the council can do about the graffiti and tagging - looks to me as though they've taken as much action as thery can...

Where I do agree with you though is regarding the danger of spun consultations and the devising of campaigns designed to show an uninforceable solution to a problem that they've selectively identified, defined and then 'reacted' to. Like you say, there are far more important things for them to be spending their time and efforts upon.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Woodchopper on June 08, 2007, 04:38:18 pm
Hey Tobes now that I have scraped myself of the ceiling and yes I was mad and still am to some degree.

My issue is that quite simply there must be more important things for the administration to address and this is so irrelevent in view of Geoff's conversation with Steve Harcourt.  If it isn't a legal requirement why even bother about it...

and isn't it part of David Wren remit to deal with Grafitti - if so why do people exiting the Bus Station have to look at it on the white painted boards on the area surrounding the old Post Office redevelopment - with Your Swindon Stickers on it drawing attention to the fact it is a municipal responsibility to deal with it!!!

The Council's ability to look after its own infrastructure is abysmal, just look how much there is on and around Euclid Street - what an appalling example and what on earth do people arriving in 'our' town think of us when they see all this mindless Criminal Damage so obviously displayed in our Town Centre?

and have I read somewher else there is an hour wait to enter the Council tip in Cheney Manor - isn't this part of David Wren's remit as well?  You have an awful lot to do David so how do you have the time to waste on Dog Control Order Legislation? - get real!!
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: concerned_of_Old_Town on June 08, 2007, 05:51:19 pm
Just come across this thread and coincidently heard someone talking about it at work.

As an occassional jogger I find one of the most annoying things is when you stumble across across a large dog off his lead along when jogging somewhere like the old railway track.  It amazes me how inconsiderate owners are when invariably dog makes a play at you.

Think be a nightmare to enforce and must admit i thought some of the proposals ie clearing up dog mess was actually the law anyway.

I will be supporting the proposal and be writing to the council accordingly

BTW Probably guess I don't like dogs too much
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on June 08, 2007, 06:13:57 pm

I don't think old railway lines will be covered by the DCO's.

Paradoxically (sp?), if you regularly use old railway lines, country rights of way etc, that are currently quite quiet, the implementation of DCO's may make those places very much busier with dog walkers because they won't be covered by the DCO's in respect of keeping dogs on leads.

Don't let me dissuade you from supporting DCO's though, each is entitled to their own opinion and I can completely see where you're coming from.

If DCO's started tomorrow they wouldn't really affect us, or our dogs because we're part of the vast majority of dog owners who do keep their dogs on leads when it's sensible to do so, do clean up after them, (although that's almost always at home anyway), and do think of others.

What I've been trying to do is make sure SBC follow the proper process...which Wednesday nights forum revealed that they weren't intending to, and stir up some discussion.

I'll make a prediction though.... the revenue raised by the new enforcement team will be almost exclusively from non dog owners.

 

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Tobes on June 08, 2007, 08:21:11 pm
Can we extend the orders to cover joggers? They're invariably sweaty, they smell unpleasant (and often look unpleasant too) - and many of them jog along to their iPods, deaf to the presence of other pavement users, making them a positive hazard!
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on June 08, 2007, 08:28:51 pm

Funny you should say that....I don't know whether this bill has been successful in New York.......


http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/02/07/taking-aim-at-ipod-oblivion/

Quote
The bill would effectively make it illegal to use any kind of portable electronic device–a music or video player, cell phone, smart phone, gaming device, etc. while crossing the street in cities such as New York, Albany and Buffalo. Offenders would be slapped with a $100 fine and a criminal court summons. Joggers and bicyclists would have to limit their iPod use to city parks in which no street crossing would be involved.

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Tobes on June 08, 2007, 09:27:57 pm
The world is going insane!!!  :crazy2:
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: tig on August 01, 2007, 02:08:51 pm
quote from Wiltshire's GWR fm site

Dog Control Orders

On August 1st 2007 new dog control orders come into force in West Wiltshire. Using powers under the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment act, council offices and police community support officers will be able to issue fixed penalty notices of £80 to anyone caught breaking the orders. The council can also prosecute offenders handing them a fine of upto £1000.

The orders include:

The fouling of land by dogs - This means anyone who owns a dog will have to remove faeces deposited from public spaces in the borough, except where there's dog foul on agricultural land, or next to roads where the speed limits more that 40mph. Faeces will have to be cleaned off any defined surfaces though, that means paths, cycleways and pavements.

The exclusion of dogs order - The will mean you won't be able to take dogs into any children play areas, cemeterys, bowling greens or anywhere clearly fenced and with signs saying no dogs. The Common, Broughton Gifford, Norrington Common and the care park and open space at Westbury White Horse, south of Westbury Hill.

You can see a full list of the orders for West Wiltshire here.

Meanwhile, Swindon Borough Council's dog control orders consultation eneded on July 6th 2007. Those orders included the above and an additional clause. The dogs on leads order: This order means dogs will have to be kept on a lead in: Pedestrianised areas of the town centre, Queens Park, Penhill Park, The Town Gardens, and a designated area in Lydiard Park; around the main lawn area, cafe and barbeque area.

Not adhering to these orders in Swindon would also mean a fixed penatly notice. The money from those fines will be put towards running workshops to educate people about responsible dog ownership.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on August 01, 2007, 04:19:13 pm
The money from those fines will be put towards running workshops to educate people about responsible dog ownership.

Hmmm....I'll believe that when I see it.

It's just as likely that Labour 5th columnist Councillor David Wren will seek to appropriate such fines and use them to surgically implant all of Swindons residents with RFID transponders as part of his 'Pay As You Dump' initiative.

Meanwhile I'm going on a new 'Electro-Plumb' course to learn how to fit the corresponding radio gizmos to the side of your toilet bowl......


This truly is the Dawning of the age of Aquarius.....
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: rob-magic on August 03, 2007, 10:46:47 am
The world is going insane!!!  :crazy2:


The world started going insane a few thousand years ago (at least this time around!) when some giant (38ft) humanoids beings were chased across our galaxy and hid here on earth. They are still here, constantly engineering us to manufacture wars to re-create the technology they once had before the floods that came from the water-planet (second most luminous body in our skies next to our sun) that they had set up a dummy base on was destroyed in an attempt to rid our universe of their scum. They have used such technology in an attempt to break through the 'force field' that has been set up around our planet to prevent their 'escape'. Unfortunately for us, this was the cause of the hole in earth's ozone layer.

as far as I know anyway...

 :-X lol
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Tobes on August 03, 2007, 05:21:03 pm
 ;D

Rob - do I detect a sense of humour???

(Its impossible to be 100% whether you're joking or that's really what you believe... but on this ocassion, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and thank you for making me chuckle!)
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Tobes on January 30, 2008, 07:36:50 pm
Here - sorry to reanimate an old thread - but have a nose at the following:

(am I alone in detecting wanton  :spin: ??)

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/swindonnewsheadlines/display.var.2006456.0.town_mp_champions_dog_lovers_cause.php

What exactly has Snelgrove achieved viz a viz the soon-to-be-imposed dog orders? Can anyone share any light? It seems on the one hand she's saying -

Quote
It's so nice to see a well-trained dog enjoying a run in one of Swindon's parks
  (which of course will no longer be possible in certain arbitarily designated zones)

... but then the article limply concludes with -

Quote
The proposed orders, which are due to go before Swindon Council's cabinet in the coming months, will only affect people who give dog owners a bad name as they underline what most sensible, responsible dog owners do already.

This last quote isn't attributed - so its unclear as to whether that's Ms Snelgrove's view, that of the writer or that of SBC. It's also unclear as to what 'do' in the context of good or bad actually is!

Smells like this piece came as a press release to me, especially as it doesn't have a by-line. Was it issued from Snelgrove, The Kennel Club - or even SBC?
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Bobby Bingo on January 30, 2008, 07:40:00 pm
It was issued by the "We Love Rotweilers Club "
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: komadori on January 31, 2008, 09:53:18 pm
Even the puff (http://www.annesnelgrove.co.uk/?PageId=8beb53bf-71c8-dc44-81b9-912a84b53a78) on Ms Snelgrove's website reads like a Kennel Club press release, rather one of her own.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Tobes on February 01, 2008, 10:15:06 am
Quote
KC Dog approached Anne Snelgrove MP when a councillor in her constituency put forward a proposal to have a ban on dogs off leads at all times. Anne became actively involved in the matter and wrote to the councillor and the leader of the council to express her concerns. Anne also wrote to the then animal welfare minister, Ben Bradshaw, for his opinion on the subject. Anne was also willing to issue a joint press release with KC Dog but due to the pressure placed on him, the councillor withdrew his motion. Anne also strongly supports the Kennel Club’s electric shock collar campaign. 

Is this true - has Wren withdrawn the motion? I thought this is due to be heard very soon? What's going on here? Geoff - has Anne actually done something worthy of praise?
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on February 01, 2008, 10:59:27 am
...Anne was also willing to issue a joint press release with KC Dog but due to the pressure placed on him, the councillor withdrew his motion

Is this true - has Wren withdrawn the motion? I thought this is due to be heard very soon? What's going on here? Geoff - has Anne actually done something worthy of praise?

Maybe, perhaps, don't think so and I very much doubt it!, (always I'm always happy to be corrected) :)

I understand the motion has been quietly dropped due to pressure from other councillors, who quite rightly suggested that byelaws already exist which cover ever aspect of section 55, (Dog control orders), and that if these byelaws were actually enforced, section 55 is unnecessary.

The council also recognised that adopting section 55 automatically and permanently replaced the previous byelaws, making Swindon Borough Council fully responsible for policing section 55, and perhaps the entirety of the Clean Neighbourhoods and environment act. Hence my previous comments about David Wrens' enviroment police.

Thankfully the Council is not yet willing to take on policing functions which, (in my honest opinion), ought to continue to be carried out by the police, and neither did the council jump at the revenue raising opportunities implicitly implied in section 55.

I will thank David Wren (and his officer Steve Harcourt) publicly for seeing sense, and his Councillor colleagues for adopting a less gung-ho approach to section 55 than him, but only when it's been properly announced.

I remain hopeful that section 55 is properly dead, but I'd like to see the death certificate before having the wake.

In the meantime, I think the Snelgrove/KC quote is another example of a plausibly deniable, ambiguous press release..... or maybe just poor reporting. In any event the quote is more accurate like this:


Quote
Anne was also willing to issue a joint press release with KC Dog but due to the pressure placed on him, the councillor withdrew his motion.

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Mart on February 03, 2008, 06:11:24 pm
Can we please call a halt to the repeated use of the phrase 'withdraw his motion'. It is making me feel ill.

'I will thank David Wren (and his officer Steve Harcourt) publicly for seeing sense', likewise. But I would still like to take a ticket for the growing queue to kick him in the nuts vis a vis Wheeliebingate, if indeed he was the mover and shaker behind this misguided and 'right on' bit of cobblers. Don't get me wrong, me and mine are fine, 2 bags picked up on weekly collection is perfectly marvellous, but to failing to accept any culpability for the bloody mess that still lays around not too many yards away is pretty lame. Yes, there are lazy dirty sh1ts about, but there always were and will be, to claim this minority are responsible for the posted pictures is just damn lazy.

Brand new scheme and it is all hunky dory, it's a bloody fairy tale and the scheme's supporters know it, and they erode what value the scheme does offer with their blinkered adherence to whatever load of old wossname they are adhering to.

Clear up the remaining mess, kick the arses of dirty bastards, stay with AWC October to February, go weekly when it's warmer and we could have a workable scheme.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on February 03, 2008, 10:58:28 pm


I've been wondering who'd say it first  :)


Quote from: Mart
...stay with AWC October to February, go weekly when it's warmer and we could have a workable scheme


Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Mart on February 04, 2008, 07:03:48 pm
To be honest it wasn't me.

I think there are rumblings over in the South East that it could be a compromise that suits the 'consumer' (you know they're itching to call us that) and takes significant steps to avoid the belgian fines.

There is some momentum gathering and the WHO subscribe to it as well.

I also discovered Mole Valley only has one fixed Speed Camera, that's on the Mickleham bends famed amongst bikers for the fun you could have on them, so they shut one lane of the dual carriage way and stuck the camera in.

They move mobile units to roads where accidents occur. I like that policy as well.

Remarkably sane, but the sanity is reassuringly absent from other policies.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Mart on February 04, 2008, 07:24:10 pm
Regarding the Mole Valley mono camera (wrong thread really, I know)

http://www.surrey-safecam.org/fe/default.asp?n1=1&n2=44&n3=29

See!

Don't even bother with Thamesdown. Loads.
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on February 04, 2008, 08:22:20 pm
Runymeade is even better with 0

Reigate and Banstead sees peppered with 'em  :)


D'ya know what I do when I'm on a bit of a downer regarding scameras, overactive cctv surveillance etc?.....

....I look at a small collection of dirty pictures.





(http://www.talkswindon.org/pictures/gatso/gatso_a37.jpg) (http://www.talkswindon.org/pictures/gatso/gatso_a37_closeup.jpg)

(http://www.talkswindon.org/pictures/gatso/gatso_a48.jpg) (http://www.talkswindon.org/pictures/gatso/gatso_air_gun.jpg)

(http://www.talkswindon.org/pictures/gatso/gatso_blown_up.jpg) (http://www.talkswindon.org/pictures/gatso/gatso_christmas.jpg)

(http://www.talkswindon.org/pictures/gatso/gatso_graveyard.jpg)  (http://www.talkswindon.org/pictures/gatso/gatso_thorney.jpg)


I find it somehow lifts my spirits.  :)

Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Dick Norman on February 05, 2008, 09:51:16 am
 ;D

Good Game Geoff.  Do you the one (camera that is) at the Northern end of the A6 Clapham Bypass just North of Bedford.  You go from a very fast dual carriageway to a 50 MPH limit with a dreaded camera on it.

All the locals plus me know it is there but some people see it last minute and brake furiously.  I suggest this is more dangerous than it not being there, but the point of the story is that one day someone presumbly with a Land Rover put a chain on it and removed it.  That said the evidence was left about ten yards away.  I guess they got their picture taken.

Incidentally, what has happened to David Wren?  He is noted for his low profile or is it as I understand his function is now being attended to by his nominated shadow and expected successor Brian Mattock?  Anyway maybe Brian could throw some light on this subject and say whether or not this is going through or not?  Or is it like so many unpopular Tory plans just disappearing into the mists of time?
Title: Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
Post by: Geoff Reid on February 05, 2008, 02:19:46 pm


Don't know.....still waiting for the death certificate.

I'm still being told, (by a councillor that I trust), that section 55 of the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2006 will not be adopted by SBC.

But...

....the adver is all over schedule 3A of the act: "FREE DISTRIBUTION OF PRINTED MATTER ON DESIGNATED LAND" - The offence of unauthorised distributionk, which it reports is due for adoption by SBC later this year, along with the rest of the Act. (presumably after the May local elections  ;) )

Keep your eyes on this subject, it might yet turn into a bunfight.



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