Author Topic: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton  (Read 3998 times)

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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2010, 11:14:00 am »
If there was no welfare state, there would be no one to try and pick up the pieces of those effected by his crimes, would there? Or can you seriously conceive of a means of profiting from rape councelling and victim support?

It's not the 'welfare state' that picks up the pieces, it's families, friends and colleagues.
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2010, 11:16:12 am »
Bollocks, now you've got me confused.

I resent funding a welfare state that in turn funds the lives of such people to the same standard of those I perceive as more deserving. I am compelled to because poor sentencing allows that situation to arise.

I can no more choose who I help fund than I can dictate where my taxes are spent. This makes me unhappy. Perhaps some should be denied the support of the state in the manner they presently enjoy it.

A 'welfare state' that takes more of our money to spend on convicted repeat offenders than it does on pensioners is not as 'caring' as it likes to believe. Prisoners receive more money per meal than patients in NHS hospitals. How have we allowed this to happen. Seriously, what's wrong with us?
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Tobes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2010, 12:03:46 pm »
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It's not the 'welfare state' that picks up the pieces, it's families, friends and colleagues.

 :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

Why don't you hire a poster site or two from Decaux to help pronounce your ignorance a little wider and clearer? Maybe the Goodyear blimp could be programmed to do a few circuits of Swindon airspace with a neon sign reading ":censored: you! I'm alright! :censored: you! I'm alright! :censored: you! I'm alright! :censored: you! I'm alright!" And no, before we go down the next inevitable path, I'm not a marxist or even a leftie for having the temerity for pointing out the utter selfishness of what you're saying.

Whilst families and friends often DO provide the best care of all (and should be encouraged to do what should be the natural thing), very many people DON'T have that support. Obviously empathy scores pretty low down in your genetic make-up, but try and consider: They could be old and their next of kin dead. They might be far from home. They may be estranged from their families and friends. They may be unemployed. And most important of all, they may have good reasons not to share such horrible trauma with people close to them. And having had personal experience of such issues, I can assure you that its abject arrogance to assume that the help the state can offer is not both welcome AND potentially life saving.

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It's not the 'welfare state' that picks up the pieces, it's families, friends and colleagues.

As yes, that society that Mrs Thatcher so famously said she didn't believe in...

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A 'welfare state' that takes more of our money to spend on convicted repeat offenders than it does on pensioners is not as 'caring' as it likes to believe. Prisoners receive more money per meal than patients in NHS hospitals. How have we allowed this to happen. Seriously, what's wrong with us?

That there is iniquity and inefficiency within the welfare state does not condemn the entire system any more than the failure of the bankers condemns the entire system of capitalism. To assume either is extremism. Extremism is just a cypher for abject stupidity or moral vaccuousness.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2010, 01:38:27 pm »
Whilst families and friends often DO provide the best care of all (and should be encouraged to do what should be the natural thing), very many people DON'T have that support. Obviously empathy scores pretty low down in your genetic make-up, but try and consider: They could be old and their next of kin dead. They might be far from home. They may be estranged from their families and friends. They may be unemployed. And most important of all, they may have good reasons not to share such horrible trauma with people close to them. And having had personal experience of such issues, I can assure you that its abject arrogance to assume that the help the state can offer is not both welcome AND potentially life saving.

And, to think, only the other day you were saying that if the motivation is 'wrong' (as you seem to see it) then the outcome is wrong. People being paid to provide support services? Without going into too much detail, my family has been affected by a benefits enabled sex offender. The only thing that helped the person concerned come to terms with the trauma was a self-help group, wholly unfunded by the State. They had to leave a Victim Support meeting because it was doing more harm than good. We know that the criminal concerned only received a derisory sentence and they still live in the same State supplied accommodation they lived in before. Thankfully, my family could afford for proper justice to be served, had we not had those resources the picture would essentially been of the State enabling, supporting and protecting the criminal and leaving the victim in the cold. You might be happy contributing your money to an obscene system of that nature, I'm not. I actively resent it.

As yes, that society that Mrs Thatcher so famously said she didn't believe in...

And you talk about ignorance? I suggest you read the full comments that she made. Anyway, what the hell does a comment made almost a quarter of a century ago have to do with anything?

That there is iniquity and inefficiency within the welfare state does not condemn the entire system any more than the failure of the bankers condemns the entire system of capitalism. To assume either is extremism. Extremism is just a cypher for abject stupidity or moral vaccuousness.

You just can't see it, can you? The Welfare State is intrinsically geared towards encouraging the worst of humanity, it exponentially distorts the natural order and attempts to subvert human nature. Don't think that's true? OK, ask yourself, why isn't paying tax a voluntary system? It's rare that laws are made to force people to do things that they actually want to do in the first place.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Muggins

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2010, 01:49:57 pm »
"Anyway, what the hell does a comment made almost a quarter of a century ago have to do with anything?"

Because since then far too much time and effort has gone in to producing people much the same as yourself?

Another who thinks we should all go back to being a third world country - remember that one TSer's?
Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2010, 02:22:14 pm »
Because since then far too much time and effort has gone in to producing people much the same as yourself?

I want a better nation for those within it, not a worse one that falls entirely to the lowest common denominator. If that somehow makes you think I'm a 'bad person' (or whatever it is you're implying), good luck to you.

Another who thinks we should all go back to being a third world country - remember that one TSer's?

Unfortunately, that's where we've been heading for quite some time now - precisely due to deluded (at best/insidious at worst) left-wing policies. Just look at any league tables of the UK against other comparable countries and you'll see just where your left-wing, so-called 'caring' ideologies have got us. The left doesn't care about anything other than imposing its half-baked, unnatural and flawed doctrine on everyone. All they while, they're all making their millions. 'Caring'? Yeah, right.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Tobes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2010, 02:48:36 pm »
Since when did giving a shit about a person beyond your immediate friends and family who might be less fortunate than yourself become a cypher for 'left wing'? Ah, I guess the same philosophy which sees Obama being condemned by neo-cons for attempting to provide even the smallest of health reforms in the states as a 'communist'.

'Left left left left' - every post you bash out contains the word like an unthinking shibboleth - but you seem to have failed to recognise that the welfare state is willingly supported and apreciated by millions of people who are NOT from the left. It may well have been set up by the left - but for half the time since, the country has been run by the right. Besides which, the people who live in this country themselves have an opinion. Whilst they might moan and complain about the things the welfare state gets wrong, they still don't want to see it ended. In your world, this is not because they see its benefits despite its issues, or even because of a philosophy of wanting to provide help for others. In your world, its because you think people are deluded and somehow brainwashed. That says as much about you as it does any supposed failure of the system.

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I want a better nation for those within it

As long as the can pay for the priviledge...

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If that somehow makes you think I'm a 'bad person' (or whatever it is you're implying), good luck to you.

'Luck' still has a lot to do in life, does it not? Lucky to be wealthy. Lucky to be healthy. Lucky to be cared for. And the unlucky? In your world, it seems they are doubly so, as it can only be their fault, eh?

There is much wrong with the welfare state - but after having lived and worked in three other countries without one (and where I've seen its impact on those who can't pay), I know which system I prefer.

What ever bad personal experience you've had, there are plenty of others who've had good ones.
Besides which, it seems matter of common sense and demontrably self apparent that a society can be best assessed and judged by the way in which it cares (or tries to care) for it's least able.

Mahatma Ghandi said,
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"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members."

... no doubt just another bit of rhetoric uttered by a deluded leftie stooge, eh?

I'd sooner see a good idea improved and any inherent iniquities solved than to wind back the clock to a new dark age of Victorian self interest. But if you think that makes me a 'bad person' good luck to you. If people who think like you do win the argument, luck will become more important than ever.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2010, 02:58:18 pm »
Since when did giving a shit about a person beyond your immediate friends and family who might be less fortunate than yourself become a cypher for 'left wing'? Ah, I guess the same philosophy which sees Obama being condemned by neo-cons for attempting to provide even the smallest of health reforms in the states as a 'communist'.

Giving a shit about a person beyond your immediate friends and family who might be less fortunate than yourself has little or nothing to do with the Welfare State. As I asked before - if it's such a good idea that fits with the majority's mindset, why are people forced under pressure of law to contribute to it?

'Left left left left' - every post you bash out contains the word like an unthinking shibboleth - but you seem to have failed to recognise that the welfare state is willingly supported and apreciated by millions of people who are NOT from the left.

Because they can't see beyond it, and the harm it does. Relentless propaganda, not far off brainwashing, tends to work when its carried out by the State. Again, I'd be more than happy to put your theory to the test and make all tax contributions voluntary. If you have the courage of your convictions, you'd be happy to see that also.

It may well have been set up by the left - but for half the time since, the country has been run by the right. Besides which, the people who live in this country themselves have an opinion. Whilst they might moan and complain about the things the welfare state gets wrong, they still don't want to see it ended. In your world, this is not because they see its benefits despite its issues, or even because of a philosophy of wanting to provide help for others. In your world, its because you think people are deluded and somehow brainwashed. That says as much about you as it does any supposed failure of the system.

Again, let's put it to the test. I'd be more than happy to. Would you?

As long as the can pay for the priviledge...

Not the case.

'Luck' still has a lot to do in life, does it not? Lucky to be wealthy. Lucky to be healthy. Lucky to be cared for. And the unlucky? In your world, it seems they are doubly so, as it can only be their fault, eh?

Yes, luck's a big part of life. So is unfairness. In fact, that IS life.

There is much wrong with the welfare state - but after having lived and worked in three other countries without one (and where I've seen its impact on those who can't pay), I know which system I prefer.

That's fine, I don't imagine there will ever be a time when everyone sees it for what it is. The majority will, though. Eventually. It's only been around c.60 years. I doubt it'll last much beyond another 60.

Mahatma Ghandi said,
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"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members."

... no doubt just another bit of rhetoric uttered by a deluded leftie stooge, eh?

No, it's an opinion. One that carries no more or less weight than yours or mine. Or are we expected to believe that everything Ghandi said is an absolute truism?

I'd sooner see a good idea improved and any inherent iniquities solved than to wind back the clock to a new dark age of Victorian self interest. But if you think that makes me a 'bad person' good luck to you. If people who think like you do win the argument, luck will become more important than ever.

Maybe so, but it'll also be a better and, ironically, more equitable society for all.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Steve Wakefield

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2010, 03:43:00 pm »
Maybe so, but it'll also be a better and, ironically, more equitable society for all.

Why?
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2010, 04:45:07 pm »
Maybe so, but it'll also be a better and, ironically, more equitable society for all.

Why?

Because there will be less people forced to be trapped in a never ending, exponentially increasing life of misery, pointlessness and no hope. And everyone else will not be forced to fund the inbuilt obscenity of such a system.

Nature will always win out over silly man-made systems that attempt to pervert it.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2010, 05:03:16 pm »
Because there will be less people forced to be trapped in a never ending, exponentially increasing life of misery, pointlessness and no hope. And everyone else will not be forced to fund the inbuilt obscenity of such a system.

Nature will always win out over silly man-made systems that attempt to pervert it.

We might as well phone Dignitas and book one way tickets to Switzerland now eh?  :santa_grin:


Offline Tobes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2010, 05:31:40 pm »
... Why?

(Because in 20's world, he and his interests alone are the most important things? I guess its a question of perspective.)

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As I asked before - if it's such a good idea that fits with the majority's mindset, why are people forced under pressure of law to contribute to it?

Perhaps because with individual responsibility also comes a moral duty to try and act for the collective good of all? Or maybe, in your world, we should abandon all laws? That WOULD be showing 'the courage of your convictions', would it not?

I guess the analogy is also akin to when Simon (incorrigable leftie and green-meister that he is!!) ends up indirectly paying towards State funded things he disagrees with like nuclear deterance through the VAT he pays on his food or the percentage of duty on fuel paid when he buys a bus ticket. I expect Simon's annoyed too - but then again, I doubt that because of these iniquities that he'd like to see all food production nationalised or petrol given in exchange only for state issued carbon offsetting coupons. If you want to remove yourself from a sense of collective responsibility and a society, become a hermit or an anarchist...

Funny, is it not, that if your mindset was widely shared, people would and could simply refuse to pay their contribution, regardless of the law, and the whole system would fail and you would get what it is you think you want. A classic example of what would happen in 20 world is whats going on in bankrupt California, again, in the place of his Utopian dream , the good 'ol gun toting land of the free (but not at point of service!). The state infrastructure is literally falling apart, from healthcare to parks to public highways - but nobody wants to mention 'increased taxation' for fear of being unlectable. And so the situation keeps getting worse.

Again, for a thread littered with ironies, the best recent example of no tax compliance I can think of as a precedent would be 20s old friend THE POLL TAX! I guess he agreed with that bit of civil disobedience? Ah, no - commies and lefties out brainwashing the masses once again. Better call out the police to crack some hippy skulls! Oh no, hang on - we can't compel them to pay tax, can we? Mind you, because THAT was a tax which was fairer for 20 it was a 'good thing'. In 20 World, maybe he'd make an exception for the poll tax, but not national insurance...?

Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas  :santa_azn:

The fact that most people pay their taxes isn't just down to compulsion (well, I expect it is for 20), its because many people in the UK have the sophistication to understand and see that they get something back. It must be because of all the left-wing propaganda and naughty commie juices added to the water supply that people actually elect MPs on ocasion KNOWING that taxation will increase!

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Because they can't see beyond it, and the harm it does.

Oh, I see - because they don't share the genius of your gifted insight? Oh no, its because...

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Relentless propaganda, not far off brainwashing, tends to work when its carried out by the State.

... through which organs is this fantastically effective propaganda being distributed then? Who are the servants of this hidden left-wing Ministry of Truth? The Sun... oh no, hang on - must be the Mail... Express? Ooops, no damn, errr, Sky news? Ooops. Ummm - The Telegraph? Hang on - I'll get this in a minute...

Last time I checked (because I like to try and get a balanced view of the world), an AT LEAST equitable chunk of the media was dominated by a right wing agenda. Or are the likes of Murdoch double bluffing? The public must be mislead - it must be why you never see negative stories about the NHS or benefit scroungers or short prison sentances - it's sooooooooooooo one sided, isn't it?

Oh come on.

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As long as they can pay for the priviledge...

Not the case.

But you're not going to say how - except perhaps to mention the Bismark system again. Magic pixies will pay for the healthcare of the poor? ... Out of interest, I put 'Bismarck system' into Google and found the following quote. I'm not sure if this is supposed to help me understand or not - but can you give me a link to what you're suggesting as a viable alternative, as I suspect (hope) this wasn't it:

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Bismarck's intention was to create a constitutional façade which would mask the continuation of authoritarian policies. In the process, he created a system with a serious flaw. There was a significant disparity between the Prussian and German electoral systems. Prussia used a highly restrictive three-class voting system in which the richest third of the population could choose 85 percent of the legislature, all but assuring a conservative majority. As mentioned above, the king and (with two exceptions) the prime minister of Prussia were also the emperor and chancellor of the empire—meaning that the same rulers had to seek majorities from legislatures elected from completely different franchises.

This conversation brings a sense of de ja vu - its a bit like talking to Rob Magic.

There is much wrong with the welfare state, but a lot of people (who AREN'T from the left!) believe that the good outweighs the bad. However much people moan about it (or a media with its own agenda comments on the negative aspects), give them the alternative or private or national insurance, by far the most support the continuation of the latter. And thats down to simple common sense and the ability to weigh up the consequences and implications of the alternatives, not some delusional concept of mass brainwashing.

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Nature will always win out over silly man-made systems that attempt to pervert it.

Yuh - lets just give up on science and medicine, its all just so pointless...
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2010, 05:51:43 pm »
As I've said, several times now, if it's a worthwhile system that you think most people believe in and agree with, why not let people choose whether the contribute or not?

You can't answer the question, because you know the answer.

BTW, the Bismarck quote that you posted has absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to do with his funding model for universal healthcare - which has been demonstrated, time and again, to be superior to the Beveridge system.

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The Euro Health Consumer Index (ECHI) 2009 was released this week, and got lots of media coverage in the UK because it ranked the NHS 14th out of 33 countries and said the British health service was let down by waiting lists and "uneven quality performance". Only 4 counties in the EU15 (Western Europe, roughly speaking) got lower scores – Italy, Spain, Greece and Portugal.

"Bismarck Beats Beveridge – yet again!"

"Looking at the results of the EHCI 2006 – 2009, it is very hard to avoid noticing that the top consists of dedicated Bismarck countries, with the small-population and therefore more easily managed Beveridge systems of the Nordic countries squeezing in. Large Beveridge systems seem to have difficulties at attaining really excellent levels of customer value."

The following list shows the rankings of Western European healthcare systems according to their 2009 score. The Bismarck countries are in bold:

(1) Holland, (2) Denmark, (3) Iceland, (4) Austria, (5) Switzerland, (6) Germany, (7) France, (8) Sweden, (9) Luxembourg, (10) Norway, (11) Belgium, (12) Finland, (13) Ireland, (14) UK, (15) Italy, (16) Spain, (17) Greece, (18) Portugal.

The report suggest two points which could explain the comparative underperformance of Beveridge systems:

(1) Managing organizations of this size (the NHS employees 1.5m staff) requires management skills which just don't exist in the public sector.

(2) The primary loyalty in Beveridge organizations tends to be to politicians and other top decision-makers, rather than patients.

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=36&Itemid=55

'Best in the world'. Yes, of course it is. The NHS, like our entire welfare state, is hamstrung by politicians who just cannot leave history where it belongs.
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Offline Mart

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Re: Paedophile sex offender released - Stratton
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2010, 07:42:21 pm »
I'd sooner see a good idea improved and any inherent iniquities solved than to wind back the clock to a new dark age of Victorian self interest

Wee bit unfair, some of the greatest philanthropists this nation ever produced were Victorians, it was quite a progressive age as far as social attitudes go. Just ambling through Bryson's 'At Home' again and a few examples reminded me. They were right shits in many ways, but not consistently so.

Because there will be less people forced to be trapped in a never ending, exponentially increasing life of misery, pointlessness and no hope.

Yeah, sod off, I was here first.
Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.

 

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