Author Topic: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?  (Read 15606 times)

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Offline Tea Boy

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #140 on: December 26, 2010, 12:19:50 am »

The great thing about the 'American Way' is that it's rooted in individualism, something the the Left aren't keen on (though they may well pretend that's not the case).

Arguably, the Left is at odds with at least two the three tenets:

"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

There is no great thing about the 'American Way', I always found it hypocritical of the Septics that thier dream is, "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness"

1. Life, whats that supposed to mean, like no other country allows it?
2. Liberty, from a country that until the 60's denied simple human rights to a large section of thier population based solely on the colour of thier skin.
3. The pursuit of happiness? more bollocks, America's fine if you're loaded, not so great if your poor. You can pursue it, but what regard is given to you if you can't obtain it.

As typical with America, its flim flam, smoke and mirrors rubbish designed to hide the true nature of the capitalist beast. The use of the individual as a consumer, to be dicarded and disregarded once thier spending power is exhausted. The 'American Dream' , b***sh1t, to quote Al Murray Pub Landloard, the British don't need a 'Dream' cos were already awake. We can see what 'they' are doing.

The thought of this country coming out of clegeroon's ideologically motivated attack on everything that makes this country special, as a clone of America, worries me deeply. Capitalism is never about left or right wing politics, its about the Rich and the Poor and how without realising the poor remain poor and are made to feel that they are doing alright by just scraping along and the Rich find more ways of becoming Richer. Individualism? sorry doesn't work for me, much prefer to be in a more collective and socially orientated society. The only real freedom is achieved when you can't be sacked, or that someone else doesn't have the power to change your finances or future. Until you've secured that income, you can't truly be an individual as you always have to rely on someone else in some way. so real lasting 'Individualism' is for the Rich only.

When your living day to day, disenfranchised and worrying how to make ends meet, who cares whether your 'individualism' is threatened or enhanced, you are too busy worrying about financing the next day/week/month.
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Offline Ringer

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #141 on: December 26, 2010, 12:38:46 am »
Good Post Tea Boy
I like the Pub Landlord and as you have pointed out The Pub Landlord is right its all Bulls***t also he has a few interesting  views on Europe as well.

Here are the words to ODE to Joy the Anthem of Europe .

Quote
Europe is united now
United that it may remain;
Our unity in diversity
May contribute to world peace.

May there forever reign in Europe
Faith and justice and Freedom
For all its many people

In a greater motherland
Citizens, Europe will flourish,
A great task calls on to you.
The stars in the night sky
Are the symbols that unite us.


I believe Cleggaron is all for Europe ?
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #142 on: December 26, 2010, 09:48:52 am »
Individualism? sorry doesn't work for me, much prefer to be in a more collective and socially orientated society.

Didn't work too well for the good people of Russia, did it?

And without simply providing a lie as your answer, if you were told you had to emigrate, tomorrow, to either America or China, which would you choose?

The only real freedom is achieved when you can't be sacked, or that someone else doesn't have the power to change your finances or future. Until you've secured that income, you can't truly be an individual as you always have to rely on someone else in some way. so real lasting 'Individualism' is for the Rich only.

I really don't think it's as completely about money as you suggest, but I tend to agree with the first part of your statement. So, that being the case, what's stopping you setting up a business of your own, working for yourself? Because until you do, it doesn't matter where you live - you'll always be at the whim of the State or your private employer.

May I ask, are you married, or do you have children? Because, according to your statement, doing so must also mean you've sacrificed your true freedom.

When your living day to day, disenfranchised and worrying how to make ends meet, who cares whether your 'individualism' is threatened or enhanced, you are too busy worrying about financing the next day/week/month.

It's true that there's a certain type of person and mindset that is drawn to the concept of the State ensuring that everything will be OK. Unfortunately, the State can only do that for a certain period, because once everyone realises that there's no downside, no consequence to their actions, people tend to take the easy route and have everything sorted out and provided for them.

That, unfortunately, is about as far removed from my concept of 'freedom' as its possible to get. All it takes is a change of government and, all of a sudden, you're ****ed.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Tea Boy

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #143 on: December 26, 2010, 07:53:16 pm »
Individualism? sorry doesn't work for me, much prefer to be in a more collective and socially orientated society.

Didn't work too well for the good people of Russia, did it?

And without simply providing a lie as your answer, if you were told you had to emigrate, tomorrow, to either America or China, which would you choose?

The only real freedom is achieved when you can't be sacked, or that someone else doesn't have the power to change your finances or future. Until you've secured that income, you can't truly be an individual as you always have to rely on someone else in some way. so real lasting 'Individualism' is for the Rich only.

I really don't think it's as completely about money as you suggest, but I tend to agree with the first part of your statement. So, that being the case, what's stopping you setting up a business of your own, working for yourself? Because until you do, it doesn't matter where you live - you'll always be at the whim of the State or your private employer.

May I ask, are you married, or do you have children? Because, according to your statement, doing so must also mean you've sacrificed your true freedom.

When your living day to day, disenfranchised and worrying how to make ends meet, who cares whether your 'individualism' is threatened or enhanced, you are too busy worrying about financing the next day/week/month.

It's true that there's a certain type of person and mindset that is drawn to the concept of the State ensuring that everything will be OK. Unfortunately, the State can only do that for a certain period, because once everyone realises that there's no downside, no consequence to their actions, people tend to take the easy route and have everything sorted out and provided for them.

That, unfortunately, is about as far removed from my concept of 'freedom' as its possible to get. All it takes is a change of government and, all of a sudden, you're ****ed.

20 where do you get this tripe from, this country has never been about extremes so why try to justify your point by constantly using them? First neither, I'll happily stay here in the UK where fair minded people practice democracy in a moderate society thanks. In fact not only would I stay but I would fight to keep this country that way. I travelled when I was younger, I am yet to find any country with a better society, or more beautiful landscape than good old blighty.

Not everyone can or wants to work for themselves. The key in any case, is realising you are not truely free in a captalist system in the very same way you aren't free in a communist one. One has the state controlling you the other is businesses and corporations. A business is only accountable to its owner or it's shareholders, it neither cares or requires you to be free or not, it's use of you to provide it with income is the thing that takes your abilty to be free away. At least in a democracy you can vote the government out and they are accountable to the electorate at that time. People or profit? Give me people anytime.

Surely when you have children you do sacrifice some freedom, you become responsible for others and that ties you down, to not do so would be irresponsible. Unless of course you have finances to pay some one to look after them for you. Try asking someone if they feel free if they have a mortgage, to house thier kids. If I did have kids the sacrifice of my freedom would be unconditional for thier benefit.

I could argue further, personally I think it's already been said by Paul Weller and the Jam far more eloquently than I could ever do. And to think this was written over 20 years ago during a different right wing government. Just shows how far we haven't come in all that time.



Going Underground. The Jam.

Some people might say my life is in a rut
But I'm quite happy with what I got
People might say that I should strive for more
But I'm so happy I can't see the point

Somethings happening here today
A show of strength with your boy's brigade and
I'm so happy and you're so kind
You want more money, of course I don't mind
To buy nuclear textbooks for atomic crimes

And the public gets what the public wants
But I want nothing this society's got
I'm going underground
(Going underground)...................

Some people might get some pleasure out of hate me
I've enough already on my plate
People might need some tension to relax
I'm too busy dodging between the flak

What you see is what you get
You've made your bed, you better lie in it
You choose your leaders and place your trust
As their lies put you down and their promises rust
You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns

And the public gets what the public wants
But I want nothing this society's got
I'm going underground
(Going underground)...................

We talk and we talk until my head explodes
I turn on the news and my body froze
The braying sheep on my TV screen
Make this boy shout, make this boy scream
Going underground, going underground
Going underground, I'm going underground



Gardening tips: Always remember its brown side down, green side up.  If its knocking now it'll only go bang later

Offline Chav

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #144 on: December 26, 2010, 08:31:48 pm »
There is always:

Bittersweet Symphony - by The Verve

'Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, this life
Try to make ends meet
You're a slave to money then you die
I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
You know the one that takes you to the places
where all the veins meet yeah,

No change, I can change
I can change, I can change
But I'm here in my mold
I am here in my mold
But I'm a million different people
from one day to the next
I can't change my mold
No, no, no, no, no

Well I never pray
But tonight I'm on my knees yeah
I need to hear some sounds that recognize the pain in me, yeah
I let the melody shine, let it cleanse my mind, I feel free now
But the airways are clean and there's nobody singing to me now

No change, I can change
I can change, I can change
But I'm here in my mold
I am here in my mold
And I'm a million different people
from one day to the next
I can't change my mold
No, no, no, no, no
I can't change
I can't change

'Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, this life
Try to make ends meet
Try to find some money then you die
I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
You know the one that takes you to the places
where all the things meet yeah

You know I can change, I can change
I can change, I can change
But I'm here in my mold
I am here in my mold
And I'm a million different people
from one day to the next
I can't change my mold
No, no, no, no, no

I can't change my mold
no, no, no, no, no,
I can't change
Can't change my body,
no, no, no

I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
Been down
Ever been down
Ever been down
Ever been down
Ever been down
Have you ever been down?
Have you've ever been down?
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.

Offline Tea Boy

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #145 on: December 26, 2010, 09:04:52 pm »
There is always:

Bittersweet Symphony - by The Verve


Chav, Your good, Very good..... indeed a classic...
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Offline Mart

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #146 on: December 26, 2010, 10:35:07 pm »
Bittersweet Symphony - by The Verve

Miserable bastards.

I saw The Jam at Guildford Civic Hall the week Going Underground went straight in at Number 1, happy days.

Anyway:

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

To the tune of The Wheels on The Bus.
Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #147 on: December 27, 2010, 08:56:25 am »
Anyway:

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

Amen to that. Says it all. Presumably that's why all socialists have to try so hard to put on the pretence that they're not simply miserable, bitter and failed individuals.

I almost feel sorry for them, were it not for the fact that in a futile attempt to mitigate their own situation they'd like to bring everyone else down to the same level.
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Offline Tea Boy

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #148 on: December 27, 2010, 10:27:20 pm »
Anyway:

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

Amen to that. Says it all. Presumably that's why all socialists have to try so hard to put on the pretence that they're not simply miserable, bitter and failed individuals.

I almost feel sorry for them, were it not for the fact that in a futile attempt to mitigate their own situation they'd like to bring everyone else down to the same level.

Where do you get this drivel 20?
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Offline bobwright

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #149 on: December 27, 2010, 11:40:32 pm »
Tea Boy - Its not drivel it is the seeds of dischord.

The continuous stream of one sided wording can only be penned by the hand of one who is not seeking to be balanced but to sow dischord.
The value of TS is that it turns over stones which others would rather not be turned. If the platform is steered away from the stones or dischord leads to the sites unpopularity its value will be wrecked.

Reinforcing prejudice and inflaming ignorance is not helpful to debate but useful in creating dischord. Who knows it could even lead to another site stepping in to take on the debates but under the control of someone who will not turn over stones.

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #150 on: December 28, 2010, 01:38:12 am »
Tea Boy - Its not drivel it is the seeds of dischord.

The continuous stream of one sided wording can only be penned by the hand of one who is not seeking to be balanced but to sow dischord.
The value of TS is that it turns over stones which others would rather not be turned. If the platform is steered away from the stones or dischord leads to the sites unpopularity its value will be wrecked.

Reinforcing prejudice and inflaming ignorance is not helpful to debate but useful in creating dischord. Who knows it could even lead to another site stepping in to take on the debates but under the control of someone who will not turn over stones.

Dunno about some of the above, monthly page views are up by almost 37,000 on this time last year.  Viewers do like a bit of vicarious viciousness :santa_smiley:

Subjective opinions of where 20 Eyes is on the 'radar of reasonableness' seem to be somewhere North of Rob Magic and a tad further to the right than Pogo Greenhalgh. Pointing fingers and branding anyone who disagrees with a statement or opinion they publish as 'lefties' is a fairly typical 'if you aren't with me you must be a communist pinko fag' tactic which is more suited to those with an Americanophile Republicanist mindset than us provincial hicks in Wiltshire but using the recent exchange between Tea Boy and 20 as an example, it should be fairly obvious that 20 is trolling, and has been for a while. 

It doesn't matter how 'intellectual' the words might look and sound, trolling is still trolling.  It is up to other members to decide how, or whether, to respond and interact with the 20's, Rob Magics and Pogo's of the www.  If members want to expend their energy arguing with people who have already told them they consider talking to them a waste of time, aren't they also wasting their time responding to them?, especially when there are so many other interesting things to be discussing.

Members set their own topics and they are quite capable of ignoring posts and posters they think are deliberately pulling their threads out of whack or trying to pick an argument with them.

I was asked today if I thought 20 Eyes and some other members are actively pursuing an agenda which involves trying to 'damage or discredit' Talkswindon, or make it a less inviting venue for others to use.  I thought it was an interesting question.



Offline Tea Boy

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #151 on: December 29, 2010, 12:07:34 am »
Yes, it was becoming most tiresome. I had thought about leaving the ongoing discussion earlier in the thread. I learnt a long time ago to foresee some one on a wind up. Got a Jam Lyric in though :santa_afro:
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Offline Ringer

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #152 on: December 29, 2010, 10:20:41 am »
Yes, it was becoming most tiresome. I had thought about leaving the ongoing discussion earlier in the thread. I learnt a long time ago to foresee some one on a wind up. Got a Jam Lyric in though :santa_afro:

It was good you did not leave it as it confirms my view of you as a poster with a social conscience who would understand the irony of all the things this council is doing................. as the lyric goes 
Quote
This is progress, nothing stands in its path Yellow bulldozers, the donkey jackets and J.C.B.'s While hundreds are homeless they're constructing a parking space
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #153 on: December 29, 2010, 12:17:14 pm »
Where do you get this drivel 20?

My experience of people I've met/known that are staunchly left-wing.

Quote from:  bobwright
Tea Boy - Its not drivel it is the seeds of dischord.

The continuous stream of one sided wording can only be penned by the hand of one who is not seeking to be balanced but to sow dischord.

The value of TS is that it turns over stones which others would rather not be turned. If the platform is steered away from the stones or dischord leads to the sites unpopularity its value will be wrecked.

Reinforcing prejudice and inflaming ignorance is not helpful to debate but useful in creating dischord. Who knows it could even lead to another site stepping in to take on the debates but under the control of someone who will not turn over stones.

And there you have it. 'Seeds of dischord'? What, a person not sharing your view and, instead, taking an opposite view? You then go on to very unsubtly attempt to threaten/imply that any view that is not, presumably, harmonious with your own view will somehow drive the site into evil hands (again, presumably you mean the hands of people who don't all agree with your view?)

I don't mind what the likes of bobwright post on here. They can play the victim card and emote their faux-caring all day long as far as I'm concerned... and yet the likes of bobwright don't like it when others voice their opinions. That's those delightful socialists all over. They only believe in freedom of speech when they're hearing what they want to hear. Sad.

Quote from: Geoff Reid
I was asked today if I thought 20 Eyes and some other members are actively pursuing an agenda which involves trying to 'damage or discredit' Talkswindon, or make it a less inviting venue for others to use.  I thought it was an interesting question.

Given that there seems to be a contribution number of around 20 and a hardcore posting membership of about 10 people, it seems a fairly paranoid and redundant question.

Had you not stopped to think that some of the left-wing views expressed here (and there are plenty) leave a rather nasty taste in the mouth and give the forum an air of a slightly deluded, cliquey and outdated overall viewpoint? No, I don't suppose you had. I have no agenda whatsoever on Talk Swindon, I just returned to it and felt that it was all so one-sided and 'lovey dovey airy fairy' that some alternate opinions may make the place a bit more interesting and worthwhile.

Whether you like it or not (and whether you can see it or not), Talk Swindon does seem to consist of anti-Tory, basket weaving craft types who hate corporations and developers, feel it's somebody else's fault that they're not a high-flyer and almost seem to see Swindon as a small village where everyone has the same kind of leftish/so-say liberal (apart from when anyone posts something that doesn't toe the party line) approach that's usually adopted by Champagne Socialists.

It's like a modern-day, communal version of The Good Life. Maybe that's why not many people, other than the clique, seemed to have been posting much?

As for trolling, I can think of two regular contributors who fit that bill FAR more than I ever would.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Chav

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #154 on: December 29, 2010, 05:10:44 pm »
Quote
As for trolling, I can think of two regular contributors who fit that bill FAR more than I ever would.

as in who ?

20Eyes you said ''Talk Swindon does seem to consist of anti-Tory, basket weaving craft types''

How do you know this ?

I think you will find that Talk Swindon consists of people from all walks of life including differentiation in party political followers/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. They maybe 'watchers, contributors, regular contributors.

I am not anti- Tory and I don't weave baskets either !

Everyone who posts on TS does so of their own will, and its the combination of different types of posters that makes Talk Swindon so interesting  :santa_afro:

I like people 20Eyes, and what people have to say is interesting , and this also includes what you have to say.

You seem to come across as quite angry sometimes - are you angry ?
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.

Offline Mellon

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #155 on: December 29, 2010, 05:24:24 pm »
Quote
As for trolling, I can think of two regular contributors who fit that bill FAR more than I ever would.

as in who ?

20Eyes you said ''Talk Swindon does seem to consist of anti-Tory, basket weaving craft types''

How do you know this ?

I think you will find that Talk Swindon consists of people from all walks of life including differentiation in party political followers/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. They maybe 'watchers, contributors, regular contributors.

I am not anti- Tory and I don't weave baskets either !

Everyone who posts on TS does so of their own will, and its the combination of different types of posters that makes Talk Swindon so interesting  :santa_afro:

I like people 20Eyes, and what people have to say is interesting , and this also includes what you have to say.

You seem to come across as quite angry sometimes - are you angry ?

or uptight?
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #156 on: December 29, 2010, 05:28:50 pm »
20Eyes you said ''Talk Swindon does seem to consist of anti-Tory, basket weaving craft types''

How do you know this ?

Um, because I can read, maybe? The response that's arisen due to somebody outside the clique deviating from the overall tone slightly really does speak volumes.

People actually talking about attempts to 'damage or discredit' the forum and 'seeds of dischord' just because somebody doesn't just hit the reply button and say, 'Yeah, bloody Bluh, what an arse'? I mean, can't you see how that looks to the majority who aren't in the TS clique??

I think you will find that Talk Swindon consists of people from all walks of life including differentiation in party political followers/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. They maybe 'watchers, contributors, regular contributors.

Yes, that's the party line. I almost fell for it last week, on the basis that if enough people say it enough times, there must be some truth in it. However, a couple of the more recent posts on this particular thread have persuaded me otherwise. There is most definitely a 'tone' here - and if you don't fit/agre with that tone, it seems you're viewed as trying to undermine the forum.

I am not anti- Tory and I don't weave baskets either !

OK.

Everyone who posts on TS does so of their own will, and its the combination of different types of posters that makes Talk Swindon so interesting  :santa_afro:

Apart from when somebody starts posting comments that don't basically echo everyone elses. Honestly, if you take me out of the equation (as bobwright seems to want to), I would honestly say that there are only two people who post here semi-regularly that don't have quite the same view/opinions as the majority of the rest of the regular contributors. Again, it's probably not easy to see it from within, but from without, it's blindingly apparent.

I like people 20Eyes, and what people have to say is interesting , and this also includes what you have to say.

I like most people. Can't honestly say I like everyone, because it simply isn't the case. I'm also very interested in what everyone has to say, which is why I don't make stupid comments when the left-wing professional politicians push their comments on here. 'Seeds of dischord' - from the party who took us to war in Iraq, it's comedy gold.

You seem to come across as quite angry sometimes - are you angry ?

Some of the things that politicians do make me a bit angry now and again, mainly because I hate people who aren't genuine and who put on a pretence - especially if that mask hides far more sinister realities beneath. I don't pretend to be something I'm not and I dislike people who do, especially when it's done to buy/gain votes.

For the vast majority of the time, I wouldn't say I was angry at all. I've got very little to be angry about, especially now that Labour have been booted out of office. That makes me feel fairly sublime, frankly.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #157 on: December 29, 2010, 05:29:47 pm »
or uptight?

It's interesting how perceptions work. Anyone who knows me IRL will know just how amusingly ironic that comment is.
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Offline Mellon

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #158 on: December 29, 2010, 05:44:00 pm »
Its not a perception, its an observation.
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the world together."

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #159 on: December 29, 2010, 05:46:32 pm »
Its not a perception, its an observation.

If you say so.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

 

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