Author Topic: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?  (Read 15610 times)

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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #100 on: December 22, 2010, 05:09:39 am »
... and there you go again, its equally laughable that you insist on polarising an issue and falsely attributing any resistance to your outmoded dogma as de facto 'Socialist Workeresque', 'leftie' etc. Why do you keep doing that?

Because people still insist on pretending that their outmoded dogma, 'Capitalism sucks, corporations are bad' and 'It's all the bankers' fault', is somehow forward thinking and sensible. It's actually the politics of the 80s. The current trend for blaming everything and its dog on 'the bankers' brings to mind the old lesbian/feminist clarion call of 'All men are rapists'. It's so hyperbolic (and demonstrably untrue) as to render those who make the claims completely redundant to any sensible debate.

The amount of times I've read and heard morons saying things about the economy/deficit such as, 'If we took all the bankers bonuses off them we'd be fine' is unbelievable. I know times are hard, but are people really that thick and desperate to leap to such simplistically incorrect 'solutions'?

The comments in several posts above are actually very interesting. People seem to blame the banks for moving with the times and assisting a certain type of customer by offering self-certificated mortgages and then essentially admit that the banks should never have trusted their customers because they're liars. While I accept that Gordon Brown should have been tighter on banking sector regulation, the law is actually quite hard on financial fraud... yet that regulation didn't stop many thousands of people committing the crime.

Just because you have the opportunity to lie does not mean that you should. Also, nobody seems to have mentioned the banks retrospectively having the police charge a large percentage of their customers with the criminal act of fraud - maybe they should do that, you know, to help prevent people doing such things in future? But, no, it's easier for us to all look the other way and pretend that hundreds of thousands of people didn't dishonestly take out loans that they knew they had no hope of ever paying back. I'm not suggesting that all banks have acted well in this, clearly they haven't, but it's not only pathetic but also very worrying that society doesn't seem able to admit that the banking crisis could only ever have happened with the complicit poor/illegal decisions of a large percentage of the public.

With regards to other sectors, there are now plenty of examples of ethically motivated and morally sound private companies. As I said before, that's the great thing about Capitalism, it reflects human nature, aspirations and ideology better than any other system we've yet come up with. Also, the vast majority of private companies are small companies, often one or two-man bands. The majority of them are not out to 'screw the poor', or whatever, they're simply trying to make a living and keep a roof over their own heads. They're just people who'd rather try and work for themselves, and possibly give employment opportunities to others, rather than work for other people.  There aren't many private companies that get to sell powdered baby milk to Africa or pollute the Gulf Coast with oil.

The sad thing is that some people immediately equate success (and making a profit) with people being bastards. Apologies if you think I'm constantly labelling that type of approach as Left-wing, but the image it always conjures up in my mind is this one:

"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Tobes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #101 on: December 22, 2010, 02:02:19 pm »
And here's the image I see listening to you...

 :santa_azn:

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Offline Mart

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2010, 02:06:59 pm »
The sad thing is that some people immediately equate success (and making a profit) with people being bastards.

I'm halfway there then.

Personally speaking I think affiliation to a political party is equivalent to a self inflicted lobotomy, commitment to the cause immediately reduces any number of options and solutions that are available in any given situation, and the solution that is selected will be entirely predictable, and probably ineffective because it is predictable.

I have views that may align with the policies of any of the three major parties at any given time, though it getting hard to distinguish quite what the policies are, I also have views that would align with Nazi and Communist doggerel if I am honest, they are in the minority in so I don't fret too much, chances are I will lose all interest in Poland one day anyway.

Politicians and party members haven't got that kind of flexibility and honesty which is why thay are not fit for purpose and never will be.

Imagine if you applied that kind of inflexibility to the rest of your life.

If I was Prime Minister I would use my secret police to hunt down everyone who had ever held membership of any political party and exile them to Bulgaria.

I feckin hate Bulgaria.
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2010, 02:08:00 pm »
And here's the image I see listening to you...

Bit weird, given that I'm not a Tory.

Didn't B'Stard actually end up a hero? Maybe that's why you're confusing he and I?  :santa_afro:
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2010, 02:15:53 pm »
Personally speaking I think affiliation to a political party is equivalent to a self inflicted lobotomy, commitment to the cause immediately reduces any number of options and solutions that are available in any given situation, and the solution that is selected will be entirely predictable, and probably ineffective because it is predictable.

I'd tend to agree.

My stance is one of initial extreme libertarianism but supported by a law & order system that would make Ghengis Khan blanch.

This is why I cannot identify with anything on the Left: they're completely anti-individual and anti-liberty while at the same time advocate a virtually hands off/soft as possible approach to crime and criminals.

Given Ken Clarke's current approach, I literally have nobody I can vote for. It all just boils down to begrudgingly voting for whoever has the best chance of keeping Labour from regaining office.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Mart

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #105 on: December 22, 2010, 02:25:17 pm »
Bugger.

Can't find anything contentious in that post. May have to begin contradicting myself in order to start an unproductive row.
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Offline Mellon

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #106 on: December 22, 2010, 02:48:44 pm »
And here's the image I see listening to you...

Bit weird, given that I'm not a Tory.

Didn't B'Stard actually end up a hero? Maybe that's why you're confusing he and I?  :santa_afro:

if your not a tory...then what are you? labour? :santa_cheesy:
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Offline Steve Wakefield

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #107 on: December 22, 2010, 02:53:06 pm »
I feckin hate Bulgaria.

Yes but it is said that Bulgaria is the most effective country at keeping its roads and airports snow free.
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Offline Mart

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #108 on: December 22, 2010, 03:01:51 pm »
Yes but it is said that Bulgaria is the most effective country at keeping its roads and airports snow free.

I disagree, how many flights were cancelled in Qatar through snow this year, mmm?
Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #109 on: December 22, 2010, 03:14:04 pm »
if your not a tory...then what are you? labour? :santa_cheesy:

It depends how you define it.

Currently, I have to vote LibDem locally (best chance of keeping Labour out) and Tory nationally (best chance of keeping Labour out).

However, I'm not a member of either party, nor ever will be, and neither reflects my views. In theory, my last votes 'won' both locally and nationally so I should be very happy with the current situation. Indeed, a LibDem/Tory coalition could potentially be about the best thing I could hope for, but instead of persuing the best aspects of each party's policies, we seem to be getting watered down versions of the worst.

One thing's for sure - just because you're not an avowed Tory does not make you Labour (and vice-versa).
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Mellon

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #110 on: December 22, 2010, 03:25:17 pm »
So your a libdem then?
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2010, 04:18:15 pm »
So your a libdem then?

Hardly, their law & order policy is a ****ing joke.

I'm also one of the few that never thought Cable was up to much. I think people gave him the benefit of the doubt because he looks like he's about to cry most of the time. All he did was say that he'd sort of mentioned in passing a few years back that the economy might not stay buoyant forever - and overnight he became exalted as a political mastermind.

That said, Brown was prime minister at the time, so the kerb stone outside my house looked fairly adept in comparison.
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Offline Mellon

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2010, 04:24:16 pm »
Ah very interesting...a green perhaps?
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2010, 05:12:38 pm »
Ah very interesting...a green perhaps?

Some of their policies make a lot of sense to me - but I'd never want them handed the reins (I'm sure they wouldn't either, realistically).
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Offline Mellon

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #114 on: December 22, 2010, 06:09:29 pm »
Ah right, your a political pick an mix
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Offline bobwright

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #115 on: December 22, 2010, 08:12:47 pm »
I do not think it is that helpful just to rubbish other peoples thinking. Whilst affiliation to a political party may not be for everyone to then describe those who join in negative terms says more about the commentator than about those who have joined. The governance of this land can be changed however it currently embraces the idea of political parties. If a party is not seen for its politics but as a cooperative body, working in partnership and embracing individual thinking in order to make collective decisions on behalf of the nation what alternative is being proposed that improves things?

People often oppose what they do not understand. Through ignorance they cultivate reasoning for the stance that they have taken and even try to influence others to feel the same. This even goes as far as ascribing qualities to those they oppose. This may be an innate instinct based on survival needs. Sadly it is very simple to create enemies and inflame others to see others in a negative light. It is even sadder that those spreading negative messages hide their identity because they do not have the courage of their convictions or if they did reveal their identity their purpose would be exposed

I have not met a politician yet who was not a ‘Pick n Mix’ politician. I have not met a person yet who was not a ‘Pick n Mix’ person. Fortunately this quality allows for the changing of minds and to form common grounds. Labels may be useful but they do not do justice to the nature/thoughts of an individual. Quite a few join a political party because it is the closest representative party to their views. There seems very little support for either the Independent or ‘Pick n Mix’ approach to politics. Consistency is demanded and perhaps more relevant to this thread that a persons word is their bond. However time and time again in the heat of politics meltdown occurs.

For what it is worth whilst Marx may have explained the dynamics of politics Ghandi explained meltdown through inconsistent thinking and behaviour. Taken a step further all life is connected, no matter how many labels are applied. The connection also occurs in political thinking with right and left wing extremes inter-connecting. I salute the Greens for influencing politics through alternative thinking however I am sure there will be extremes within their thinking as well, can you have a ‘Pick n Mix’ green? Their extremes could be lime green, jade and teal. This would be very confusing for me as I am colour blind however it could be worse, thank god for the lobotomy.

Offline Mart

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #116 on: December 22, 2010, 09:37:40 pm »
The governance of this land can be changed however it currently embraces the idea of political parties.

Mmmm, and what a roaring success it is proving to be.

If a party is not seen for its politics but as a cooperative body,

Yeah, but it co-operates with itself, not with other parties for the common good, would Ed bend the knee to Dave for the good of the country, or vice versa? Would he bollocks.

Working in partership and embracing individual thinking in order to make collective decisions on behalf of the nation

Sounds a bit Soviet to me comrade. Partnership with it's feckin self perhaps which in no way reflects the will of the electorate. Three things that would be the opposite of what they are were politicians willing to listen and act. Immigration would equal sweet bugger all, we would not be in the EU and prison overcrowding would be resolved by the death penalty. Unpleasant options though they may be we all know damn well they would be fact were the views of the public represented by their, erm, representatives.

However time and time again in the heat of politics meltdown occurs.

Yeah, when the pressure is on it fails. Not fit for purpose because poilicians pursue dogma not logic or sense.

what alternative is being proposed that improves things?

Cantons.

Quite a few join a political party because it is the closest representative party to their views.

Ah, so if you want representation you must comply, if you do not comply you will not be represented?

For what it is worth whilst Marx may have explained the dynamics of politics Ghandi explained meltdown through inconsistent thinking and behaviour.

Marx?

He died of phlegm, but first he said

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles

Currently that could be interpreted as a struggle between the people and those that they elect to represent them, but then resolutely fail to do so.

Ghandi, well if ony our politicians would lead such a resolutely simple lifestyle, but no, they like their 'trappings' too much.

If slagging off political parties is not permissible for an outsider, well, I shall start a political party. It will be called the 'Not A Political Party' and there will be no means of establishing one's membership. It's distinguishing features are that it does not have any. It's main objectives are whatever is most pressing and it has an abhorrence of rosettes. It's policies will be whatever most people want, if it's OK with them. In debate it will unaccountably agree with whatever seems sensible regardless of who said it. If in opossition it will develop the unnerving habit of saying 'OK, that sounds fair enough' whenever appropriate.

The connection also occurs in political thinking with right and left wing extremes inter-connecting

Oh my giddy aunt, give me a bleedin example then. I can think of the Molotov - Ribbentrop Pact:

In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol dividing Northern and Eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence, anticipating potential "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries. Thereafter, Germany and the Soviet Union invaded their respective sides of Poland, dividing the country between them. Part of eastern Finland was annexed by the Soviet Union after the Winter War. This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Bessarabia.

Nice, very representative and inclusive.

As for the Greens, well, I think they are a handy source of tax revenue stream suggestions and that's about it. They will fade as their policies are appropriated then bastardised by the established political parties.

Global warming, hah bloody hah.
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Offline bobwright

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #117 on: December 22, 2010, 10:54:41 pm »
So summarrised - no alternative just slagging off? How helpful.

Offline Mart

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #118 on: December 22, 2010, 11:23:19 pm »
One of the policies.

Wasn't a slagging off anyway, that would have read completely differently. You would have been able to tell. It would have had things like 'What are you rambling on about you tw@t' and 'I wouldn't p1ss in your ear if your brain was alight'. It had none of these key indicators and was, therefore, not a slagging off.

It wasn't unreserved agreement which is probably why you found it unhelpful. (Alright, that bit is a bit like slagging off) What help were you seeking, pose a direct question, maybe I can, um, help.

I was very much challenging your assertions and there were several question marks which indicated an enquiry or request for illumination on my part.

There were also counter arguments. They were short and pithy so easily overlooked.

The alternative was 'Cantons', they are a political entity not a poorly spelt insult.

I also offered examples where the will of political parties prevailed, not the will of the people that elected them.

I offered an example of right/ left fusion and wondered whether you could find a more positive one.

Do you think yourselves and the other lot will pick over the Greens policies until they have nothing left of their own.

Prove me wrong, I'm defending nothing here, I claim no cause or moral high ground, I have no political heroes that inspire me and I can think of none I would espouse as a role model for the young sir. I find them all entirely too precious. Well, all the living ones anyway.

I value compassion, flexibility, assertiveness, national pride, selflessness, commonsense, logic, aptitude and the ability to listen to, then realise peoples' dreams in my leaders.

It gets a bit hot and they go droopy is no substitute.

Come on, politicians, what have they done for us lately?
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Offline Ringer

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Re: Thursday 13th January 2011 Will There Be A big thaw as Lib Dem Vote Melts?
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2010, 09:43:15 am »
Come on, politicians, what have they done for us lately?

Is that like the Monty Python what have the Romans ever done for us?

Got an option to call on some grit
Give us free Wifi
The Central Library
New schools
selling off the Oasis
Threatened to pull down the old college several times
A canal
The big weekend
Brought the Taberbnacle stones back to Swindon
Regeneration
Forward Swindon, that was so good they (Re) named it twice
The SSEP
Thousands of new houses opposite Oakhurst
Tadpole expressway
Letting Wiltshire build houses on Swindon's border ie Freshbrook & Shaw
One Swindon
Connecting People Connecting Places

I am sure this is just the tip of the political acheivements iceberg there must be many more
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