Topic: Outsourcing Adult Services to a “Social Enterprise” organisation

[Bogomil]

I know this is a bit off subject but as I understand it from another blog on last nights council meeting, despite your new leaders initial support for the outsourcing of adult services to a “Social Enterprise” organisation, and the fact that many of your fellow labour councillors raised concerns about the weakness of the “Social Enterprise” option and openly stating that they could not support the proposal, every labour member was whipped into abstaining in the vote.

I believe that only Labour will defend the people's public services in Swindon against the deep LibDem Conservative cuts.

Not sure if you were there Steve but how does this now equate with your statement today and or do you now feel that Labour has let people down by sitting on their hands as opposed to voting against the proposals they very clearly did not support?

Des

Really - I am sure if Andy had done this he would have had to withdraw the remark, can i suggest you clarify this or honourably withdraw it

Des, Not sure if he was called to withdraw it or not as there is no record of his having spoken at the cabinet meeting although I do remember this Adver article

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/954983.Heated_debate_held_over_Headlands/

[Mellon]

I know this is a bit off subject but as I understand it from another blog on last nights council meeting, despite your new leaders initial support for the outsourcing of adult services to a “Social Enterprise” organisation, and the fact that many of your fellow labour councillors raised concerns about the weakness of the “Social Enterprise” option and openly stating that they could not support the proposal, every labour member was whipped into abstaining in the vote.

I believe that only Labour will defend the people's public services in Swindon against the deep LibDem Conservative cuts.

Not sure if you were there Steve but how does this now equate with your statement today and or do you now feel that Labour has let people down by sitting on their hands as opposed to voting against the proposals they very clearly did not support?

Des

Really - I am sure if Andy had done this he would have had to withdraw the remark, can i suggest you clarify this or honourably withdraw it

Des, Not sure if he was called to withdraw it or not as there is no record of his having spoken at the cabinet meeting although I do remember this Adver article

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/954983.Heated_debate_held_over_Headlands/

same argument could be applied to the lib-dems

[Bogomil]

I know this is a bit off subject but as I understand it from another blog on last nights council meeting, despite your new leaders initial support for the outsourcing of adult services to a “Social Enterprise” organisation, and the fact that many of your fellow labour councillors raised concerns about the weakness of the “Social Enterprise” option and openly stating that they could not support the proposal, every labour member was whipped into abstaining in the vote.

I believe that only Labour will defend the people's public services in Swindon against the deep LibDem Conservative cuts.

Not sure if you were there Steve but how does this now equate with your statement today and or do you now feel that Labour has let people down by sitting on their hands as opposed to voting against the proposals they very clearly did not support?

Des

Really - I am sure if Andy had done this he would have had to withdraw the remark, can i suggest you clarify this or honourably withdraw it

Des, Not sure if he was called to withdraw it or not as there is no record of his having spoken at the cabinet meeting although I do remember this Adver article

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/954983.Heated_debate_held_over_Headlands/

same argument could be applied to the lib-dems

Elucidate??

[Mellon]

Figure it out yerself didn't you see the smiley?

[Muggins]

Warning, warning!

Be careful of the interpretation of 'Social Enterprise'  it's a term being badly mis-interpreted here in Swindon.

A social enterprise can be any old community or interest group set up usually started by volunteers.

Perhaps what they mean is a Community Co-operative, that is a non profit making organisation set up by a group of workers to employ (for wages) themselves.  Very noble it is too, if it works! I believe they run on the basis that all workers are equal.

[20Eyes]

The Social Enterprise model is well established. It is what it is, a non-profit making venture with social interest at its heart (supposedly). There are several legal models that can be applied to Social Enterprises, 'Community Interest Company' being one of the most recent.

As you say, it's really just variations on the co-operative theme.

Incidentally, it's not wise to assume that all NFPs are 'noble'. I saw it happen routinely in the States (where, in some areas, there are almost more NFPs than regular businesses) and I know people who've done it here; it can often be used very cynically whilst, ironically, outwardly maintaining the impression of being caring, altruistic and unconcerned about money. I know some people who've become very rich thanks to their 'Not for Profit' companies.

[Rochelle]

I WAS NOT "whipped" into abstaining. I have, however, done a considerable amount of research and consultation and I believe my decision to abstain, while it does not sit particularly well with me, is a pretty accurate reflection of the professional opinions I have sought and the research I have undertaken.

[Steve Wakefield]

Not sure if you were there Steve but how does this now equate with your statement today and or do you now feel that Labour has let people down by sitting on their hands as opposed to voting against the proposals they very clearly did not support?

I was not there due to illness I gave my apologies, which were minuted.  My statement is my statement and I made it of my own free will. Your opinion on Labour is your opinion, and I respect your right to hold your own opinion.

[Martin Wicks]

Perhaps one of the Labour councillors could explain what the rationale behind abstention was.

[Rochelle]

Well, I can only speak for myself, particularly as I left one meeting last week early to attend scrutiny, and arrived late to group before full council. As far as I'm aware though, I missed very little. As for my own rationale, please see my earlier post, I am happy to expand on that tomorrow but am off out in the snow just now in search of pizza! Perhaps by the time I get back on here someone else will have posted with more info.

[bobwright]

The NHS has descibed what it means by 'Social Enterprise'.

Personally I think the positives that were emerging from the relationship between the PCT and the Council were worth continuing however as this Governements idea of the NHS being safe in their hands is to disband the PCT a new way has to be taken. That does not mean we have to follow blindly or take another route because the road has pitfalls.

No whip was applied on this matter however the Risks and complete picture only emerged when a presentation was made to the Labour group  last Monday. The Risks were not addressed during the week or at full council. I hope they are addressed before April or else some of the concerns I did raise during full council could happen.

Part of the risks have been outlined by 20Eyes on this thread. I can not see how a split Liberal group will help matters. I believe the Labour Councillors will be seeking to address the risks with with the relevant parties.

[Ringer]

Bob
I hope you don't mind me questioning you like this but you said Disband the PCT what does that mean? I ask because  if you look here  it says "a new facility for the Primary Care Trust" be in the development. Will the council have to pay for that now as it is running the social enterprise? So have the councillors voted to pay for that too?  Split vote are you saying the Libdems did or did not vote for it?  I am worried because the headline is £350 million but the shops/retail will only cost £215 million that is a difference of 135 million how much of that is the PCT contribution or have I got it wrong? A little clarity may help here.

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/archive/2008/11/27/Latest+Swindon+Business+News+%28news_swindon%29/2471172.Swindon_s___350m_Muse_deal_for_town_centre/
 

[Mellon]

What's PCT?

[Des Morgan]

What's PCT?

Primary Care Trust - or have I been suckered by another Mellon 'irony'?

[Mellon]

What's PCT?

Primary Care Trust - or have I been suckered by another Mellon 'irony'?

no, genuinely didnt know, thanks des 

[Steve Wakefield]

Mellon
Cameron has he been careless with his pledges did he not say in his run up to election that he would not cut spending on the NHS and also end the  meddling and frightful changes in the NHS?

He has already abolished the Primary Care Trusts (PCT) and I am not sure about the way that could impact on Muse? It is on Central ward so perhaps those cllrs probably know a lot more about the development and what was planned in it? What I do know because of the headline in the adver a couple of years ago is that there has been a new clinical service that runs out of Carfax health centre. It is because I think there are 20-25,000 people who use GPs in the town centre, again its Central thing so maybe its best to ask the ward councillors? 

The Swindon PCT has been given £310 million pounds but the NHS nationally has to save £20 Billion over the next 4 years that money that has been given to the PCT will be spent by GPs in 2 years time when the NHS has been abolished. I think setting up the social enterprise will be expensive probably more expensive that running the services, however once it has been set up then it should save money.

The issues are everything from getting computers to talk to each other to Job Descriptions, pay rates and terms and conditions pensions etc. This is because you will have to bring teams together from different disciplines. It will not be an easy task and if we look at how long single status has been rumbling around then it gives an idea of the task as that was only the council! Now we will have to manage a transition not only with a council pay and condition framework but with the NHS.  Is this political/ideological as Thatcher took on the NHS and now Cameron is it a coincidence that the last nationalised industry still in operation that was nationalised by Atlee's labour government after WWII is the NHS?

[Mellon]

Steve....I only asked what PCT was, not a friggin lecture.

[20Eyes]

Is this political/ideological as Thatcher took on the NHS and now Cameron is it a coincidence that the last nationalised industry still in operation that was nationalised by Atlee's labour government after WWII is the NHS?

The main reason the NHS is now a sub-standard health care provider is precisely because it always has been viewed in political/ideological terms. It was, and still is, considered to be the flagship achievement of the Labour party and they have systematically evangelized it to the point of its own detriment.

Beveridge's model may have been appropriate over 60 years ago but it is not so today - other systems have been proven to work better and we should not resist improving the NHS simply because of what it represents to left-wingers.

[Bogomil]

Is this political/ideological as Thatcher took on the NHS and now Cameron is it a coincidence that the last nationalised industry still in operation that was nationalised by Atlee's labour government after WWII is the NHS?

The main reason the NHS is now a sub-standard health care provider is precisely because it always has been viewed in political/ideological terms. It was, and still is, considered to be the flagship achievement of the Labour party and they have systematically evangelized it to the point of its own detriment.

Beveridge's model may have been appropriate over 60 years ago but it is not so today - other systems have been proven to work better and we should not resist improving the NHS simply because of what it represents to left-wingers.

No sure I can agree with you about the NHS being a sub standard health care provider and I’m sure your girlfriend, who I assume from a previous post of yours, has spent time in the states, might agree with me if you compare the level of health care service provided free (at the point of use) in the UK to that in the states.

I strongly believe that NHS has become a victim of its own success. The more technological and medical developments improve both the quantity and quality of life you can expect the more people expect from it. Many of these developments result in more expensive treatments along with the level of care needed and thus the cost of the NHS rises.

I don’t believe that any government has truly kept up with the real cost of a fully funded for ALL NHS service. This I believe is why doctors and consultant regularly have to make decisions, often based on moral rather than medical reasons, why one person will not be getting a particular treatment whilst another person will be.

[Alex]

I still find it exasperating that PCTs and the medical profession generally spend vast quantities of money on surgical and other medical treatment which it has been proven is only treating a symptom and not a cause.

 I coudln't beleive that this week surgeons are suggesting surgery for behavioural problems - effectively helped with counselling and psychotherapy over a few hours. Surely this is much more cost effective and lower risk?

Many of the drug companies have a vested interest in continuing to exploit people and the the medical profession - the whole thing needs a "drains up" and a very objective and common-sense review - just like all the other major establishments in the UK. Very little is fit for purpose.