Author Topic: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?  (Read 1816 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tobes

  • Charter Member
  • Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Prehistoric bones in fields of russets and rust
Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« on: November 16, 2010, 12:42:24 am »
I had to chuckle at a story in the Adver today : http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8638099.Parking_wardens_could_issue_litter_fines/

I like old (young!) Keith Williams - he's definitely one of the good eggs in the conservative nest - but I had to say I though the idea of traffic wardens issuing on-the-spot dog fouling and littering fines was hopelessly unenforceable. Not to mention slightly pernicious - there are enough questions regarding the real relationship between parking fines issued and parking wardens employed to risk extreme cynicism amongst the local populace. To extend the already hated wardens role into a new area of conflict seemed really unrealistic to me. I think Keith needs to spend some more time mixing with Swindon's finest to see what sort of reaction the wardens would receive... ANYWAY, what tickled me most was the posting in the comments section from someone purporting to be Andy 'loose cannon' Harrison:

Quote
Oh dear, always behind the times, the lead member Cllr Keith Williams is clearly trying to claim the credit for something which I proposed over 4YEARS ago and which was worked on by the Corporate Enforcement Task group. This was all reported in the Evening Advertiser at the time.

http://www.swindonad
vertiser.co.uk/news/
local/716157.More_po
wer_to_their_elbows_
/

Having been recently been re-elected to the council after a 3 year break, at the council meeting on the 15th July 2010 I asked why the recommendations had not been taken up as a way to increase an enforcement presence on the streets of Swindon.

http://ww5.swindon.g
ov.uk/moderngov/Publ
ished/C00000284/M000
04299/$$MDocPackPubl
ic.pdf

Clearly this has acted as a prompt for Cllr Keith Williams who now seeks to claim the initiative as his own.

Cllr Andy Harrison
Lib Dem member for Penhill Ward

So, there's Andy 'the liberal of convenience', trying to make political mileage by boasting about an idea now being proposed by a conservative which HE claims he originally proposed when he was a Labour councillor!  :2funny:

The concept of council employees issuing fines and acting like a Bill and Ben police force (with the proceeds going into local council coffers) is/was no doubt something to make the average nanny statist salivate. You know, the same people who ended up bequeathing us with a world in which RIPA was being used to justify council employees snooping on parents who were claiming to be in a catchment area for a particular school. A labour party member perchance.

Come on Keith and Andy. The issuing of 'on the spot fines' is something for the police and ONLY the police. As soon as you start using council employees to extend what look like revenue raising powers, you're on an obvious hiding. The world is full enough of council employed uniformed jobsworths - and in general, people don't perceive that they're making it a better place.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita

Offline Steve Wakefield

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1554
  • Gender: Male
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 08:28:05 am »
I had to chuckle at a story in the Adver today : http://www.swindonad
vertiser.co.uk/news/
local/716157.More_po
wer_to_their_elbows_
/

So, there's Andy 'the liberal of convenience', trying to make political mileage by boasting about an idea now being proposed by a conservative which HE claims he originally proposed when he was a Labour councillor!  :2funny:

The concept of council employees issuing fines and acting like a Bill and Ben police force (with the proceeds going into local council coffers) is/was no doubt something to make the average nanny statist salivate. You know, the same people who ended up bequeathing us with a world in which RIPA was being used to justify council employees snooping on parents who were claiming to be in a catchment area for a particular school. A labour party member perchance.

Come on Keith and Andy. The issuing of 'on the spot fines' is something for the police and ONLY the police. As soon as you start using council employees to extend what look like revenue raising powers, you're on an obvious hiding. The world is full enough of council employed uniformed jobsworths - and in general, people don't perceive that they're making it a better place.

Tobes

a good post  O0 that made me reflect on quasi police/military/martial powers:

During the early 1980s for those old enough to remember Thatcher was buying trident and President Ronald "Raygun" was into star wars and of course he had a penchant for the odd  "cruise". CND and the controversy over showing the Public Information Film Protect and Survive, which showed people in the UK how to survive a nuclear war by taking the doors off the rooms in yourhouse and building a leanto in the living room. I like many police officer underwent "protect and survive" training, which we called "Nuclear Ned". In fact it was how to prepare for martial law and to "police" (govern) an area after the bomb went off.

The police would be armed with summary powers, and we know what that means! No prisons, no courts any looters etc shot. After coming to terms with that one. I looked around the room to see how other officers were reacting to the training. Tucked in a corner were a contingent of Traffic Wardens (The old style ones) I nudged my mate sat next to me and pointed towards them and whispered into his ear, "Flippin hell can you imagine what it must be like to be shot by a traffic warden?" to which we both burst out laughing, much to the chagrin of Nuclear Ned! 

Using unsworn officers is always debateable, but please remember we were trained at an early age to accept quasi police powers, by some of the most ferocious of public servants (for those that can remember them before they became trendy)?....... Librarians, who had incredible powers they could even make a room full of people be quiet with a single Shhussh!  Being fined 7 old pence for the late return of a book when I was 8 has left an indelible mark on my memory as I only had a shilling 12 old pence.

All this is for me the thin end of a wedge towards a police state, as I have told cllr Bob on more than one occaision, whose motion incidentially; kicked off this very debate. Is cllr Keith trying to wear someone elses clothes?
All posts on this forum are my own and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2860
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 08:36:45 am »
Has anyone asked the Traffic wardens if they want to do this?

Will their pay packets reflect the extra flack?

Instead will an army of unemployed be doing this - perhaps they could keep the takings?

If the traffic wardens do end up doing it, and people stop dropping litter what is the army of unemployed going to do instead?

Andy shouldn't worry about Keith nicking his idea, it's not one of his better one's.  To make a real impression on litter droppers you need people not in a 'uniform'.  Put them in a Mickey Mouse or Tigger suit.


Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline Tea Boy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 653
  • Gender: Male
  • Tea's up!, Kettle's on
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2010, 08:54:32 am »
Are there going to be any wardens left?

Aren't there redundancies in the streetsmart department? I thought I saw the wardens were part of that section or are they now protected?

wonder why its common knowledge that the cuts are coming yet the council is incredably tight lipped on what the impacts to front line staff are. I suppose the wardens that are left will  now just be doing more and more.
Gardening tips: Always remember its brown side down, green side up.  If its knocking now it'll only go bang later

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2860
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2010, 09:00:58 am »
It's all according to which wardens. The idea is that traffic wardens issue fines I think. Are they in streetsmart?  In fact is Streetsmart still going?

Haven't noticed much difference or ease of contacting them since they were where they were before Streetsmart.

One of the effects of the last cutbacks, or was it the one before the last one?  Was that the Officer who used to invite people to a Waste Community Forum left and the Waste community forum stopped. Shame, useful place that was.
Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline Des Morgan

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello !
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2010, 09:08:28 am »
Did anyone see the pictures of New York's unemployed undertaking public service work?  The people concerned were kitted out with a 'Department of Sanitation' Hi Viz jacket and issed with a broom and sent out to sweep the streets. It seems that it works in New York but is deemed inappropriate in the UK.

I am no fan of quasi police powers but I do support the notion that some powers are rightly delineated to people other than the police.  For example, I can see no issue with speeding control being the province of the local authority. Just how difficult can it be for a person to be trained how to use a 'speed camera' after all a trained police officer is only a member of the human race with attitude!!

In Swindon alone last year over 4,000 people were caught speeding using mobile cameras - at £60 a head that's £240,000 and that was achieved with probably no more than 2 people on duty at any one time.  I know it's controversial but so was the decision to take on street parking management in house. However, when the police made it clear they didn't want to manage traffic wardens they left local authroities with no option.

Offline Tea Boy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 653
  • Gender: Male
  • Tea's up!, Kettle's on
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2010, 09:23:07 am »
It's all according to which wardens. The idea is that traffic wardens issue fines I think. Are they in streetsmart?  In fact is Streetsmart still going?

Haven't noticed much difference or ease of contacting them since they were where they were before Streetsmart.

One of the effects of the last cutbacks, or was it the one before the last one?  Was that the Officer who used to invite people to a Waste Community Forum left and the Waste community forum stopped. Shame, useful place that was.

We are trying to remembe rhis name, he survived a previous redundancy round? wasn't he the head ranger at lydiard park before that
Gardening tips: Always remember its brown side down, green side up.  If its knocking now it'll only go bang later

Offline Bogomil

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Hello !
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2010, 09:33:17 am »
Many people often complain about the way in which a minority of those in society treat our environment as their own private rubbish bin, discarding rubbish, allowing their dogs to foul without clearing it up for others to inadvertently step in. Quite rightly they also ask why something isn’t done about it.
IMHO I believe that there are just two ways of stopping this type of behaviour. Education and Enforcement.

The last Labour government introduced envirocrime legislation which extended powers of local authorities to issue fixed penalty notices to offenders and many local authorities have used these alongside education to significantly reduce the amount of litter and dog fouling in their areas.

I think the justifiable point being raised here is that unless these powers are extended to officers who already have other enforcement powers, then we waste the opportunity of being able to take enforcement action.

Suggesting that an already overburdened Police force should be solely responsible for this is not really an option. Lets face it, it’s already hard enough to get the Police to attend when there are criminal crimes being committed, so what’s the chance of getting one to attend for envirocrime?

I believe that envirocrime, a bit like speeding, is looked upon by some as soft crime, something that doesn’t need enforcing until it impacts on them directly. However using the same analogy as for speeding, how many motorists take extra care and slow down when they know the speed camera’s are about. In the same way as knowing there is a greater chance of getting caught by a speed camera, the more these minority know there is a greater chance of getting caught, because more council enforcement officers have the power, the more likely they are to curb their behaviour for littering and dog fouling.

Reading the old adver article, this proposal was put forward 4 YEARS ago and raised again back in July. For the last four years we could have had cleaner streets and less dog fouling, amongst other benefits.

The question is WHY is Keith Williams claiming it’s his idea and more importantly, why is Greenhalgh still the lead member when he has the mentality to say
Quote
“At the end of the day, the people who drop litter aren’t responsible and the people who allow dogs to foul on the street aren’t responsible.”

Well if they aren’t responsible… WHO IS?

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2860
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 09:46:19 am »
Tea boy:  Ian, Ian Young, I think and yes he was a ranger before he was something else.  Wonder what he's doing now?

May be there will be the skills we need in the army of unemployed.

Bogo, Not disagreeing that some fines ought to be handed out, just who does it.  The police have PCSO's  to take on this sort of work.  That way a 'civvy' doesn't have to do it.

As you know I am a great one for the working upstream approach of education.  We can tell immediately when our schools are not doing their bit.  The runway to schools can tell nearly the whole story.  When we took over the old allotment site next to a school, the Council strimmed it for us (they used to do that sort of thing to encourge you, you know) the first four allotments were full and I mean full of decomposing crisp packets etc. that had come over the fence. We cleared them up and without a word being exchaned with the school, the paper trail stopped overnight.  the Head master, a great supporter of anything natural environment had heard and seen what we were doing, probably had not realised what was happneing before, and put a stop to it.  It remains that way 7 years later, hardly anyhing comes over the fence, but we have some in from down the hill on the way to school. Our volunteers clear up every week, but we can't keep moving the big stuff.

Now if we could stop those who regularly dump stuff  where they shouldn't, great.  And if we could get it moved toot sweet, even better, rubbish does not improve with age, neither does it stand still.
Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline Mellon

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1279
  • Gender: Male
  • Whatever it is , I didn't do it!
    • Mellons Blog
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2010, 10:47:39 am »
Extended powers? ......anyone seen V for Vendetta? The finger men and the curfew, seems a bit dictatorish to me. But if Mr Harrison feels the need to throw his weight around a bit more then usual then he should come on here and defend it as himself.
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the world together."

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2860
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2010, 11:14:45 am »
"Reading the old adver article, this proposal was put forward 4 YEARS ago and raised again back in July. For the last four years we could have had cleaner streets and less dog fouling, amongst other benefits"

Nah, Bogo, if they had brought it in 4 years ago, they would have cut it three years ago.   :D

Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline Ringer

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1796
  • Gender: Female
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2010, 04:27:59 pm »
Envirocrime an interesting concept, treating everything like a crime makes everyone in the country a potential criminal. Do we really want to live in a country  where we all have a history of convictions? I once saw a nurse come out of the hospital, cleaning out her handbag as she walked along all the items she took out were not put in the bin. I thought does she do that inside the hospital too? BTW it was not a hospital in Swindon
To qualify for inclusion there is only one rule - something described must have been said to have happened. `If the facts don`t fit the legend, print

Offline Richard Symonds

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2010, 05:06:51 pm »

In Swindon alone last year over 4,000 people were caught speeding using mobile cameras - at £60 a head that's £240,000 and that was achieved with probably no more than 2 people on duty at any one time.

Des they need that to pay for the Police Authority on which sits our illustrious Council Leader Rod Bluh, and Councillors Brian Ford, Deputy Chairman, and Ray Fisher.

Offline Richard Symonds

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2010, 05:10:53 pm »
Extended powers? ......anyone seen V for Vendetta? The finger men and the curfew, seems a bit dictatorish to me. But if Mr Harrison feels the need to throw his weight around a bit more then usual then he should come on here and defend it as himself.

Are you sure he hasn't Mellon? ;)

Offline Geoff Reid

  • Active But Odd
  • Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 6641
  • Gender: Male
  • Bald as a chimps arse
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2010, 05:57:21 pm »
 

I haven't gone back into Talkswindon's NO2ID files yet, but I'm sure a fair amount of comment about he Clean Neighbourhoods and environment Act exists there, (of which this is part of?)


Meanwhile, back in August 2007, Cllr David Wrens Inspectorate class was just about to hit the mean streets of Down-Town Swindon....

(The original link to the adver story no longer works)

Quote

Drop litter and you will pay the penalty
By Emily Walker


LITTER-LOUTS could be given £80 fines when a team of council wardens starts patrolling Swindon's streets on Saturday, September 1.

The council's Environmental Improvement Team will be able to hand out fixed penalty notices to anyone spotted dropping rubbish, cigarette butts or chewing gum.

The team was out in force in the town centre yesterday to warn shoppers about what could happen.

Environmental health manager Richard Palacio and his team were joined by the town centre management team and town centre police community support officer Patch Swindle on their crack down on people making a mess of the town centre.

"Litter encourages rats and makes the place untidy and when places look untidy they can also become targets for crime, because people don't think they are being looked after," said Mr Palacio.

"If we see anyone dropping litter and walking away we will be talking to people and telling them not to do it.
advertisement

"Then we'll be taking down their details and sending out penalty notices. We will also be taking photos of the people we stop.

"Then if they give false details, their pictures will be published on a section of the council website so we can track them down."

Mr Palacio explained that officers could be patrolling any part of the town and would be on duty from Saturday.

"There are some times when we expect there to be more littering, like in the evenings outside bars and near businesses at lunchtimes, so obviously those are times when we will be focusing our attention."

The team received a mixed response from the people stopped on Friday.

A 13-year-old boy was asked to pick up some chips he threw on the ground, because it could encourage rats and made the place look untidy.

The angry youngster told council officers: "Why don't you just poison them?"

However, most people confronted about dropping litter were embarrassed and apologetic.

Smokers stopped for throwing cigarette ends on the floor were given pouches so they could stub them out cleanly in future.

Trading standards officer Nick Bennett said: "It is just a case of changing people's attitudes.

"Most people know deep down they shouldn't be littering but don't really think before throwing a cigarette butt on the floor or spitting their gum out.

"Hopefully, it won't take long for the message to sink in that you shouldn't do it."

The council currently spends £3m keeping the streets clear of the 3,000 tons of rubbish dropped and fly-tipped every year.

All of the money raised through penalty notices will go back into projects to keep Swindon tidy and prevent crime and disorder.

7:54pm Friday 31st August 2007



Q: Does this 'team of council wardens' still exist, or have they been laid off?


As I said at the time, Councils should be wary of abolishing by laws which require police enforcement in order to do the enforcement, and collect fines, themselves. 

There is very little that is 'Liberal' about Cllr Harrison.  If Councillors were seated according to attitude instead of flag colour he, Cllr Greenhalgh and Perkins would be bench mates. 




Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2860
Re: Andy Harrison - The Iliberal 'Liberal'?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2010, 06:10:33 pm »
Then Andy must be behaving VERY differently to how he does around his constituents or have radically changed in the last few years.

He does like to stick to rules and expects others to as well, and he goes on a bit, well a lot sometimes, but he was never unkind or judgemental when dealing with people here.    Does he now then?

There is no way even at his worst, when I would compare him to Greenhaugh and definitely not Perkins.

My goodness if he is, what's brought on such a change?

Come on Andy defend yourself - be pithy mind!
Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

 

Sorry, the copyright must be in the template.
Please notify this forum's administrator that this site is missing the copyright message for SMF so they can rectify the situation. Display of copyright is a legal requirement. For more information on this please visit the Simple Machines website.