Author Topic: The Butchers' Budget  (Read 13810 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 20Eyes

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1632
  • Too fast, too deep, blah blah blah
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2010, 09:09:45 am »
One thing springs to mind from that graph... assuming that the definition of 'children' used means those under 18, it seems very clear that Labour's social engineering policies will end up standing them in good stead at general elections 10 to 15 years from now.

Long term, it would appear they've already won the game.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Des Morgan

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello !
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2010, 09:58:23 am »
Quote
With those on less 'income' generally being 'less gifted' in some way. either way the lower earners (less wealthy) will dominate in terms of numbers and will tend to be those who are educated to a lower level. and as such less aware of the of the impending socio - economic -climate impact of uncontrolled birth rates.

What a quote! I cannot believe you really mean to infer that people who choose lower income jobs are 'less gifted' in some way - try telling that to a nurse, social worker, priest who has a degree but chooses a vocation over the allure of the City.

I am amazed that you appear to make a direct correlation between lower earners and lower educated and then compound that by insinuating that lower earners aka lower educated means less aware.

Offline Des Morgan

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello !
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2010, 10:04:27 am »
Quote
Statistics or lies and more lies. I thought I would check out Vic Reeves quote on statistics only to find that according to many websites that either 67%, 80%, 84.3%, 88.2%, 96.2% or 98% are made up. So here's a question statistically speaking how many quotes are accurate?

Bob - I have to say that i have greater trust in figures produced by The Office for National Statistics than say L'Oreal who claim a 'fact' based on a statistical smaple of 127 people. I do take exception to being told that 1 in 4 children are obese when the sample is 250 kids who all attend an obesity clinic and the figure is then extrapolated through the entire child population to justify a suitably hyped media headline.

Offline Mellon

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1279
  • Gender: Male
  • Whatever it is , I didn't do it!
    • Mellons Blog
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2010, 11:26:41 am »
People on less income are less gifted? Wow.....I earn less than 10K a year, I wonder how I fit into the spectrum, or the rest of my mates
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the world together."

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2860
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2010, 12:13:39 pm »
Have you then "done a stint in the local social Service Department?" 20Eyes?
Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline Tea Boy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 653
  • Gender: Male
  • Tea's up!, Kettle's on
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2010, 10:47:41 pm »
Quote
With those on less 'income' generally being 'less gifted' in some way. either way the lower earners (less wealthy) will dominate in terms of numbers and will tend to be those who are educated to a lower level. and as such less aware of the of the impending socio - economic -climate impact of uncontrolled birth rates.

What a quote! I cannot believe you really mean to infer that people who choose lower income jobs are 'less gifted' in some way - try telling that to a nurse, social worker, priest who has a degree but chooses a vocation over the allure of the City.

I am amazed that you appear to make a direct correlation between lower earners and lower educated and then compound that by insinuating that lower earners aka lower educated means less aware.

But then there are low earners by choice, low earners and low earners by ability. If you count yourself as clever and chose a low earning job, that’s your choice. Some may be on less pay as they may not have a full time Job. However those workers are far outnumbered by those who have no choice, a low earning job is all they can get , because their school/exam results have left them with little options and they aren't attractive to better paying employers.
Hardly insulting, it’s a hard fact, it’s a hard world, made harder, when those whose in charge , whose wealth is inherited, cut  benefits and services to support multinational corporations and banks. Low earners don't need platitudes or defending. They need steady jobs that allow them to get on in life, raise a family, and perhaps aspire to own a house. Instead what they get is a series of boom and bust economy cycles, fewer rights, less pay and no job security. Bounced from one crisis to another they make their way through life a best they can. Most know they aren't that 'gifted' and don't need the false pretence or condescension or being talked down to.
A nurse or social worker, a low earner? But what does constitute a low income? Is low in your view less than £35,000 or is it less than £10,000 Perhaps low could mean less than £5000. Your argument is based around your perception of what is and is not 'gifted, I have not stated anyone on a low income is moronic to soem degree, or is that how you see those who aren't 'as gifted' as perhaps you see yourself?

Don't confuse the term gifted with dedicated, a nurse isn't a doctor, a social worker isn't a proffessor of sociology and a Priest is not a bishop. With few exceptions to get onto the high earning ladder you generally need to be fairly clever or very motivated , perhaps some might even say 'gifted'?



Gardening tips: Always remember its brown side down, green side up.  If its knocking now it'll only go bang later

Offline Tea Boy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 653
  • Gender: Male
  • Tea's up!, Kettle's on
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2010, 10:49:55 pm »
People on less income are less gifted? Wow.....I earn less than 10K a year, I wonder how I fit into the spectrum, or the rest of my mates

Trust me Mellon, I've seen your work, you won't be on less than £10k for long
 :santa_afro:
Gardening tips: Always remember its brown side down, green side up.  If its knocking now it'll only go bang later

Offline Mellon

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1279
  • Gender: Male
  • Whatever it is , I didn't do it!
    • Mellons Blog
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2010, 11:31:09 pm »
Tea Boy you are a true gentleman, you are quite right on the personal perception....I chose to move industry after I was royally screwed over in the last. I have accepted that what I do now limits me on the pay scale of life and I haven't progressed particularly far (other than 2 forklift licenses) but for the time being I am learning and working my way to better things even if it takes a little bit longer.

I do not agree with ' anyone earning a lower salary is not gifted' that's just ridiculous 'The Apprentice' may be an example of that. 
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the world together."

Offline moley

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 453
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello !
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2010, 11:36:55 pm »
The attached gives individual incomes in 2007-8.  Not exactly the same as household incomes.  (Note the figures are weekly).

20% - < £240/week.
40% - < £320/week
60% - < £440/ week
mean - £487/week
80% - < $620/week.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ifs.org.uk%2Fcomms%2Fc109.pdf&rct=j&q=%2B%22united%20kingdom%22%20%2Bincome%20%2Bcentile&ei=a8L-TLm5BN2qhAfz_qS7Cw&usg=AFQjCNFueEppiOphwuHdjO-ocU9N_w9D2g&cad=rja

From some stuff in the report I think this is for all adults - so includes people who choose not to work..

I think it's very, very arrogant to assume that the only gifted people are in the top 20% - the only assumption I'd make is that most of the particular mercenary people with ability are in this grouping... but anyone with many people with genuine vocations probably aren't.

Moley

Offline Tea Boy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 653
  • Gender: Male
  • Tea's up!, Kettle's on
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2010, 01:31:40 am »
I do not agree with ' anyone earning a lower salary is not gifted' that's just ridiculous 'The Apprentice' may be an example of that.

This is true, I have worked in what I consider to be a low earning job for very similar reasons. The guys around me haven't had that luxury or choice, they are after the best wage they can get in the most stable job they can find (not for long i fear).

They get by, they struggle at the edge of thier finances, some gamble or drink it away, others spend it on families and trying to make the best way they can in life.

They are not bad people, in fact many are good and upstanding members of society.  But nearly all are not acedemically gifted, although most are good with thier hands. certainly most don't earn that much

I 'll admit I painted the 'gifted' label with a very broad Brush, but if you don't do well at school, it takes certain other characteritics to help you succeed in the world. Take the apprentice for instance, Alan Sugar, like him or not has done exceptionally well for himself. I suppose a certain amount of luck, right place/right time sort of thing helps as well. How many budding Alan Sugars never made it because they sold too high, too low, too early or too late?

It's strange how 'gifted', and 'less gifted' can be seen as completely negative. Perhaps I should have said 'gifted' and 'more gifted' instead.

If I had wanted to accentuate the negative I could have started a scale of 'giftedness' running from Moronic to Genius and created a graph against income.

I wonder what that might look like.
Gardening tips: Always remember its brown side down, green side up.  If its knocking now it'll only go bang later

Offline Des Morgan

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello !
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2010, 09:24:11 am »
,
Quote
I have not stated anyone on a low income is moronic to soem degree, or is that how you see those who aren't 'as gifted' as perhaps you see yourself?

I accept you didn't actually say 'anyone on a low income is moronic to some degree' but i think you are being a little selective in only referring to one part of the original quote when you defend the postion on 'gifted' less gifted' or perhaps 'more gifted'

You combined 'less gifted in some way' with a direct reference to 'low earnings' and crucially to the term 'educated to a lower level'.  You then bundled those you categorised by the three terms and concluded they would be 'less aware of the impending scio-economic -climate impact of uncotrolled birth rates'

I merely challenged the assertion that it was proper to lump those on low incomes, by choice, as being in some way 'educated to a lower level' or 'less aware of the socio syuff'

Offline 20Eyes

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1632
  • Too fast, too deep, blah blah blah
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2010, 04:22:29 pm »
Have you then "done a stint in the local social Service Department?" 20Eyes?

No chance, it'd turn me homicidal. And ex of mine worked there though, that was enough to get an idea of what really goes on when it comes to the 'poorest and most vulnerable'.

It's a real shame that the media doesn't cover even half of the stuff that happens. I think a lot of peoples' outlook on society would shift dramatically if they did.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2860
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #92 on: December 08, 2010, 05:22:42 pm »
That's funny because my daughter also worked there and left because she could not bear what they were not doing and the methods they used to not do it.  She was not a social worker.
Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline 20Eyes

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1632
  • Too fast, too deep, blah blah blah
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #93 on: December 09, 2010, 09:17:32 am »
That's funny because my daughter also worked there and left because she could not bear what they were not doing and the methods they used to not do it.  She was not a social worker.

If she was not a social worker, I'm not sure what her perspective would have derived from?

On the face of it, some of their 'clients' do seem as though they may need more help. The problem is, those 'clients' have been conditioned and trained (by the system) to appear that way and to do and say the things that need to be said and done to obtain more and more money/resources. Can't blame them. As ever, it's the system at fault, not those who exploit it.

The final straw for my ex was the drug addict, mentally ill woman who had her 10th baby whilst the Social Services waited outside the delivery theatre to remove the baby... just as they had done with the previous 9 (two of whom she'd tried to kill at various points).

It makes me sad and ashamed that we still live in a society that encourages people of that nature. I do not wish to be complicit in knowingly allowing someone to ruin the lives of 10 human beings.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2860
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #94 on: December 09, 2010, 10:24:42 am »
Mmmm, drug addict, mentally ill, or perhaps it should have read mentally ill drug addict?  I think that says it all.  And ten? - ten babies no doubt if that got around it would make the daily mail headlines. 

Having said that it is a great shame that if this were true and I don't doubt it would happens ONCE, there were no interventions to help that poor woman. To stop the babies coming, no doubt she has not made old age, all that unprotected sex.  I agree there are some people you just can't help.  But neither can you leave them bleeding on the corner of the street.   Would you advocate euthanasia?  20Eyes, what's your answer to this problem?.

Just to enlighten about the Social Services I was on about, was a few years ago now, not that long ago, but long ago enough and  things have changes. More stars and all that.  Her role was at the paying out stage.  The figures to her were directly connected to the people they were serving.
Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline 20Eyes

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1632
  • Too fast, too deep, blah blah blah
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #95 on: December 09, 2010, 10:33:14 am »
Mmmm, drug addict, mentally ill, or perhaps it should have read mentally ill drug addict?  I think that says it all.  And ten? - ten babies no doubt if that got around it would make the daily mail headlines. 

OK, mentally ill drug addict. Whatever. The term you use to describe her is of little consequence to the 10 childrens' lives she's ruined... with our assistance.

To stop the babies coming, no doubt she has not made old age, all that unprotected sex.

She's very much alive and well. Coincidentally, she lives a few streets away from where me ex lives. A nice little two-bed semi in a relatively pleasant area. Must really make her sit down and consider the error of her ways, eh?

I agree there are some people you just can't help.  But neither can you leave them bleeding on the corner of the street.   Would you advocate euthanasia?  20Eyes, what's your answer to this problem?.

This is the argument that certain quarters always put up, but it's a red herring. You can't just immediately resort to, 'We either retain the status quo or leave them dying in the streets'. It's what prevents progress. We need to take a long-term approach to this, so that we may work towards a point where these things are no longer acceptable.

Just to enlighten about the Social Services I was on about, was a few years ago now, not that long ago, but long ago enough and  things have changes. More stars and all that.  Her role was at the paying out stage.  The figures to her were directly connected to the people they were serving.

I find this ever more surprising. My ex used to tell me about the little 'emergency' loans that were dished out (this was as recent as 2008, by the way). They knew it went on drugs/booze/whatever, but because the people asking knew that they'd not be refused if they said it was for 'food for the baby' they always got their money. £40, £70... all cash, none of it ever repaid. That's OUR money, just given away to people to spend on messing up their lives even further.

Maybe that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy about yourself but it tends to sicken me, slightly.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Martin Wicks

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • Personal Website
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #96 on: December 14, 2010, 05:42:46 pm »
You'll find the cuts for Swindon here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/14/local-council-cuts-data

Looks like the poorest areas get hit the hardest. Our cuts look small compared to many areas but you have to remember that the level of cuts is unprecedented. Presumably we shall see what the consequences are over the next couple of days.

Offline Tea Boy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 653
  • Gender: Male
  • Tea's up!, Kettle's on
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2010, 06:20:44 pm »
Am i reading this right a -11% grant next year and a -7% one the year after.

Best start looking for another job then
Gardening tips: Always remember its brown side down, green side up.  If its knocking now it'll only go bang later

Offline Martin Wicks

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • Personal Website
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2010, 07:11:32 pm »
Complicated. I've just looked at the spreadsheet. Formula Grant drops from £61.2 million in 2010-11 to £49.5 million in 2012-13 (not far from a 20% cut in 2 years). Council tax is frozen (is that 'local power' which Pickles is on about?) so inflation will eat into the money available. The overall figure is bolstered by £2 million which is I think transferred from the NHS "to support social care", though it is very debatable as to whether this will be anywhere near enough since there is pressure to push people out of hospital into their homes.

I can't compare these figures with 2009-10 since the SBC webmaster has failed to put the information back up there - there's a dud link.

I'll come back to this when I've had the chance to properly digest the figures.

Offline Tobes

  • Charter Member
  • Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Prehistoric bones in fields of russets and rust
Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2010, 07:21:31 pm »
Quote
This is the argument that certain quarters always put up, but it's a red herring. You can't just immediately resort to, 'We either retain the status quo or leave them dying in the streets'. It's what prevents progress. We need to take a long-term approach to this, so that we may work towards a point where these things are no longer acceptable.

Nice semantics, but you haven't actually answered Muggins. 'Certain quarters'? I think he's calling you a bleading heart liberal, Muggsy (that other red herring) :santa_azn:

Apart from stopping benefits which would create the situation Muggins describes, you have proposed no alternative. TBH, I agree with you to an extent - there are a number of unpleasant, greedy, lazy, selfish and deeply flawed and undeserving people in this town and across all of them in this green and pleasant land. But apart from ruffling the pages of your Daily Mail, how would YOU change the status quo? And by that, I mean apart from puffing up your chest and complaining about it? Practical, realistic suggestions? I ask (and I'm prepared to be impressed) because I once felt like you. Then I went out and lived a little - and realised that simplistic outlooks tend to come about through ignorance. Thats not to say that there's potential for improvements - but it was my experience that armchair villifications serve no purpose what-so-ever and usually entirely miss the point.

But thanks for making me genuinely laugh out loud -

Quote
You can't just immediately resort to, 'We either retain the status quo or leave them dying in the streets'. It's what prevents progress.

Thats the funniest line I've read in an age!!!  :2funny:
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita

 

Sorry, the copyright must be in the template.
Please notify this forum's administrator that this site is missing the copyright message for SMF so they can rectify the situation. Display of copyright is a legal requirement. For more information on this please visit the Simple Machines website.