Author Topic: The Butchers' Budget  (Read 13848 times)

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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2010, 11:09:02 am »
And yet they do - often just going for the party rather than the person.

See the logo, cross, don't know the name and certainly don't know the person.

Which kind of proves my point - people vote for the person/party they think will best support their aims, hopes and beliefs.

I've never, once, heard anyone say, 'I voted for X party because I don't think they'll help and support me'
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Offline Mellon

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2010, 12:54:00 pm »
You probably won't hear anyone say that but you will hear when the party or person effectively betrays their voters
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #122 on: December 16, 2010, 01:04:03 pm »
You probably won't hear anyone say that but you will hear when the party or person effectively betrays their voters

I wonder how many people who'll be entering University next year were old enough to vote in May 2010? I mean, as a percentage of the c.7m people who voted for the LibDems.

You make a good point, though, Ken Clarke has certainly shat upon Tory voters from a great height. Just when everyone thought it'd be impossible for anyone to be softer on crime than New Labour, along comes Clarkeyboy.
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Offline Muggins

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #123 on: December 16, 2010, 02:17:35 pm »
"Which kind of proves my point - people vote for the person/party they think will best support their aims, hopes and beliefs."

The operative word here is 'think'. What people expect and what they get is very often two different things, just like those who voted Libdem because they SIGNED a pledge, not to raise student fees.

I would have thought with all that goes on in council and parliament people might by now have started to get to know the person theey are voting for, they might find they are very far away from what they think they are going to get. 

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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #124 on: December 16, 2010, 02:29:02 pm »
"Which kind of proves my point - people vote for the person/party they think will best support their aims, hopes and beliefs."

The operative word here is 'think'. What people expect and what they get is very often two different things, just like those who voted Libdem because they SIGNED a pledge, not to raise student fees.

Well, yes, that's true. None of us can predict the future with complete accuracy. I think anyone with any sense of balance will realise that the LibDems had very little choice in the matter. Had they won the election outright then the situation would be wholly different.

Out of interest, can anyone name a government (of any party) that didn't pull any U-turns at all during their period of office?
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Offline Muggins

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #125 on: December 16, 2010, 03:00:54 pm »
The libdems DID have a choice.

I know  a few that would not have u turned.

It's a matter integrity. 
Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #126 on: December 16, 2010, 04:05:02 pm »
It's a matter integrity.

Anyone who votes hoping for integrity is always in for a disappointment. Just look at the way Labour hoodwinked the nation over the EU Referendum issue, for example. They made a promise and then broke it, all whilst using the most undignified lies to attempt to justify their action.
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Offline Bogomil

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #127 on: December 16, 2010, 04:33:46 pm »
"Which kind of proves my point - people vote for the person/party they think will best support their aims, hopes and beliefs."

The operative word here is 'think'. What people expect and what they get is very often two different things, just like those who voted Libdem because they SIGNED a pledge, not to raise student fees.

Well, yes, that's true. None of us can predict the future with complete accuracy. I think anyone with any sense of balance will realise that the LibDems had very little choice in the matter. Had they won the election outright then the situation would be wholly different.

Out of interest, can anyone name a government (of any party) that didn't pull any U-turns at all during their period of office?

Actually I rather liked a quote I saw on TV (I think is waas nevr mind the buzcocks or some such similar program) prior to the election and which I believe, at this time of year, is more relevant to the whole issue.
Quote
Going to vote is rather like writing a letter to Santa on Christmas Eve, you vote for what you hope he will bring you. The reality, after opening your presents on Christmas morning, is that you don’t always get exactly what you had asked for.

So in this I think many people are rightly disappointed that some of the Lib Dem commitments prior to the elections are not now being delivered in the coalition government. Unfortunately, despite how some TS poster like to misrepresent it, the Lib Dems are the minority part of that coalition and, as such, have a minority say on coalition government policy.

The core difference here is that none of the parties had a clear majority and therefore ANY of the parties forming a coalition would have had to have made some compromises to the election commitments that they made to those who supported them. This in no way means that a party policy, put on the back burner during a period of coalition government, does not remain a part of that parties policy commitments in the future should they form a single party government and neither can it be seen as a U-turn on policy.

Policy is normally set by members at the parties conferences and it takes a party conference to change party policies.

All parties HOPE to win an overall majority and be able to deliver what they have committed to when seeking election. However the PEOPLE of the UK did not vote that way in May.

What other alternative would you have had the Lib Dem’s do?

Go into coalition with Labour and other parties to form a “Rainbow Coalition”?

Forced the Tories to form an unstable minority Government?

Forced another very expensive General Election?

The Lib Dems did what most minority parties would have done in the circumstances.
They went into talks with the largest party to establish what common ground could be found in forming the coalition government that the people had voted for and  in order to ensure the country had some stability (and during an economic crisis didn’t we need some stability)

The libdems DID have a choice.

I know  a few that would not have u turned.

It's a matter integrity. 

Whilst many Lib Dems may have felt for the sake of the coalition they had no choice I agree with Muggins here. If they signed the pledge then they should have had the integrity to stand by that pledge.

20Eyes, Some politicians do have integrity, you may not believe it, but I am sure that Muggins could quote a prime example or two.

p.s.
The more I think about this (and some of the unforgivable fubar’s that were committed) I sometimes can’t help wondering if Labour didn’t actually want to win the election. After all, if they had, they would now be taking the blame for all the things that the coalition is having to do to sort out the economic mess they left.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #128 on: December 16, 2010, 04:48:51 pm »
20Eyes, Some politicians do have integrity, you may not believe it, but I am sure that Muggins could quote a prime example or two.

I'm sure they all do, until such time as it becomes an obstacle.

p.s.
The more I think about this (and some of the unforgivable fubar’s that were committed) I sometimes can’t help wondering if Labour didn’t actually want to win the election. After all, if they had, they would now be taking the blame for all the things that the coalition is having to do to sort out the economic mess they left.

I think many people believe that to be the case. Blair had washed his hands of it all and left to spend his millions and all Brown ever wanted to do was play at being prime minister for a while. Liam Byrne's parting shot essentially gives away the fact that Labour knew they had nothing to gain from winning the 2010 election. They'd already socially engineered the nation to the point they'd hoped to - and they also know there's nothing anyone can do to reverse most of it.
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Offline Tobes

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Re: The Butchers' Budget
« Reply #129 on: December 17, 2010, 08:50:40 am »
This thread's comment provide a very neat summary of the political situation in this country - and the cynicism we all feel. Depressing isn't it?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita

 

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