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Offline Geoff Reid

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10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« on: October 20, 2010, 11:48:07 am »
http://www.demo2010.org/

The NUS & UCU says:

"Join us as we march on the streets of central London to fight against the looming, savage education cuts.

NUS and UCU are jointly organising a national demonstration – 'Fund Our Future: Stop Education Cuts' - to take place on Wednesday 10 November 2010.

Meet at Horse Guards Avenue - 11.30am"


Offline Mellon

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2010, 12:46:20 pm »
That could be interesting
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Offline kohima

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 06:15:52 pm »
Didnt that lot hear Mr Osbourne say, in his final words of the speech, that taking everything in to consideration, the cuts over the next 4 years will amount to a cut of 19%, and Labour in their election manifesto said they would cut over the same 4 years, 20%, so if Labour had got in or if the Lib Dems had gone in with them, what protest would theybe having now........ :2funny:

Offline Steve Wakefield

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 06:22:45 pm »
Didnt that lot hear Mr Osbourne say, in his final words of the speech, that taking everything in to consideration, the cuts over the next 4 years will amount to a cut of 19%, and Labour in their election manifesto said they would cut over the same 4 years, 20%, so if Labour had got in or if the Lib Dems had gone in with them, what protest would theybe having now........ :2funny:

Thats because he has cut more from the welfare budget and from capital that allows a mean average of 19%. Is it a political trick of a cynic?
All posts on this forum are my own and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline kohima

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 06:26:54 pm »
that may wel be true Steve, but Labour didnt think of it did they or they would have gone full blown for it.....
as it is now, they are the big cutters, and the duffers for signing up to things like those two carriers or the lease for 14 airtankers, which someone willbe 5 billion better off... tell that to welfare....

Offline Tobes

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2010, 12:52:06 pm »
Quote
Didnt that lot hear Mr Osbourne say, in his final words of the speech, that taking everything in to consideration, the cuts over the next 4 years will amount to a cut of 19%, and Labour in their election manifesto said they would cut over the same 4 years, 20%, so if Labour had got in or if the Lib Dems had gone in with them, what protest would theybe having now........ :2funny:

I wish you'd quit with the political polarisation of the issue Kohima - its way too simplistic (as well as opportunistic and frankly boring). By 'they', I suppose you're implying the naughty leftie types doing the protesting? I dare say they'd be protesting just as hard - as did those of us who actually think about the issues rather than the colour of the rosettes or what some shit paper says we should do. You have a tendency to do this with every issue, as though one side is perpetually at fault. That might suit your right wing views, but it simply isn't realistic, is it?

 :WTF:

It seems to me - as someone who'd probably see himself as slightly right of centre himself - that we've been sold down the river by BOTH major parties. BOTH have presided over the disgusting recreation of  a class system - something which most of us thought (hoped) we'd dropped in the last century. For ordinary people, education = chance to have a higher salaried job, now = huge overdraft. The only people who will be unaffected by the changes are the rich or those who can financially assist their offspring. This means (obviously and f*cking transparently) that fewer people (regardless of their potential) from lower incomes will go to university. That means rich parents sending kids onto uni to hoover up the best jobs, ad infinitum. This is not only unfair, but represents a massive lost opportunity to the country as a whole.

It makes me furious.  :argh:
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita

Offline PAV

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2010, 01:21:07 pm »
So students are demostrating against cuts in funding and against raising tutition fess, which will lead to an increase in funding?

Offline Chris Watts

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2010, 01:37:01 pm »
That means rich parents sending kids onto uni to hoover up the best jobs, ad infinitum. This is not only unfair, but represents a massive lost opportunity to the country as a whole.

It makes me furious.  :argh:

I have trust funds set up for my kids to help with Uni fees. With current rate of return and up to a three fold increase in tuition fees, it ain't going to cut it.

Sorry Kids, its out of my hands. :(

Offline Muggins

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2010, 02:00:56 pm »
I think some of that is the point, Chris.

You have a trust fund set up for your kids to help with uni fees. this almost certainly means you have some disposable income.

It almost certainly means you apsire for your children to go to university.

You know now, what going to university entails.

Take that now to someone on no income or a much lower income and you will find that the last thing on their mind is finding uni fees and probably don't even realise their children could go and what to do to ge them there.  Not thick - just not in the loop.

My extended family and I never gave uni a thought as an aim for my children, it just had never been done before, despite a respect and a need for learning. It was only something other's did. (As it happened I was working in an office full of graduates or I would have know even less).  I thought my eldest was a normal brightness until a teacher said "you do realise she is university potential don't you?  No I hadn't. One family member said "the likes of us don't go to uni"

From the moment those two things were said, we were determined that if she could she would. And she did.  Her take on it now, is that if she had to get into that much debt to go now, she would do it somehow else.

Students smashing windows, I bet that's a put up job!
Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline PAV

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2010, 04:17:23 pm »
Come off it. Even if you had to pay the full whack of proposed fees, £9k a year, that's £27k for a standard degree, which spread over a 40 year working life is £56 a month. Hardly an earth shattering around, is it?

Offline Chris Watts

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2010, 04:29:42 pm »
Come off it. Even if you had to pay the full whack of proposed fees, £9k a year, that's £27k for a standard degree, which spread over a 40 year working life is £56 a month. Hardly an earth shattering around, is it?
I think that my kids would like to eat something over the 3 years at uni, and perhaps have a roof over their heads. (Although, to look at them,you would think that most uni students are feral) I do not think that the 9K a year will cover that or does that include food and lodgings?

I also do not think that Grad should be lumbered with a debt for 40 years as their education is for the benefit of all.

Offline Martin Wicks

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2010, 04:36:38 pm »
Oh dear Kohima, you really should check out your facts before you repeat Tory propaganda. As I suggested to Justin Tomlinsom he should read the government's own documents (http://martinwicks.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/justin-just-doesn%E2%80%99t-add-up/).

You will find that the New Labour cuts added up to £52 billion over 4 years, as compared to the £81 billion by the coalition. Personally I don't agree with New Labour's cuts. But perhaps you could explain to us how an £81 billion cut is less than £52 billion.

Offline Muggins

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2010, 04:44:43 pm »
£56 quid a month?  Good grief, I wish I had an extra £59 a month! Can't guarantee that would stay that either with interest rates uping and downing.  Things happen to people.  God willing, a  person leaves Uni a well rounded, long lived, healthy in body and mind, who has a job for life.  Sometimes it doesn't happen like that. What then?   

If they - and each government says it  - want children from less well off backgrounds to take up the chances in life then some leeway has got to be built in.

Lifes not always fair. Sometimes you can get a splinter even sliding down a rainbow. - Cherralea Morgen

Offline moley

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2010, 05:02:34 pm »
Come off it. Even if you had to pay the full whack of proposed fees, £9k a year, that's £27k for a standard degree, which spread over a 40 year working life is £56 a month. Hardly an earth shattering around, is it?

That's ignoring interest... one of the other changes I believe is that the interest rates on student loans will cease to be as favourable.

And this is *just* for tuition fees - doesn't cover rent / food, even before you get into non-essentials like going out..

Whether it's an earth-shattering amount depends on what the graduate ends up doing and how much they end up earning - my understanding is that this amount becomes payable at around £15K (but I could be wrong) - at that level of salary this is a very significant amount.  Not all graduates become chief executive of the local council..

Offline tig

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 06:18:47 pm »
I don't agree with the agression shown at the end of the protest, though I'm not surprized,but I do agree with the protest.

Come off it. Even if you had to pay the full whack of proposed fees, £9k a year, that's £27k for a standard degree, which spread over a 40 year working life is £56 a month. Hardly an earth shattering around, is it?

 I'm not repeat the the obvious that others have already stated, are you really that blinkered?

One thing to think about is, at present there are not enough soical workers ect, with the increase in fees and the fact the wages for these types of jobs are not high but do full in the bracket to pay back the money, after 2012 there is likely to be a decress in people qualifying to do these jobs.
so in say 5 years time when there are less soical workers, teachers police ect and suddenly and increass in child abuse, crime ect those who have supported these rises will have no right to go on a witch hunt (like in baby p case) or moan about it, as they will  have supported these changes.

Offline Weebleman

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2010, 06:23:29 pm »
Might be a bit off topic here, but can anyone tell me if there is there an upper age limit eligible for these loans?

Weeble

Offline itspavagain

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2010, 07:01:08 pm »
Come off it. Even if you had to pay the full whack of proposed fees, £9k a year, that's £27k for a standard degree, which spread over a 40 year working life is £56 a month. Hardly an earth shattering around, is it?
That's ignoring interest... one of the other changes I believe is that the interest rates on student loans will cease to be as favourable.
And you're ignoring wage inflation, say about 10%. What's the interest on these loans, much lower than that?

And this is *just* for tuition fees - doesn't cover rent / food, even before you get into non-essentials like going out..
But students have always had to pay their own rent, food and spending.

Whether it's an earth-shattering amount depends on what the graduate ends up doing and how much they end up earning - my understanding is that this amount becomes payable at around £15K (but I could be wrong) - at that level of salary this is a very significant amount.  Not all graduates become chief executive of the local council..
Then someone needs to take a serious look at what jobs "require" a degree and only pay £15k.

Offline tig

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2010, 07:11:14 pm »
 
And you're ignoring wage inflation, say about 10%. What's the interest on these loans, much lower than that?
Then someone needs to take a serious look at what jobs "require" a degree and only pay £15k.

I take it  you have never worked in public sector, the average wage inflation is 2% and the intreast on the loans is 3%

The social work degree is relevently new degree and is essential to have good social workers with sound knowledge base, a newly qualifed soical worker gets paid roughly £25 thousand a year and you start paying the loan back once you earn £21 thousand, so on those figures why do it?

Offline Tobes

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2010, 07:39:46 pm »
Quote
Quote from: moley on Today at 05:02:34 PM

    Quote from: PAV on Today at 04:17:23 PM

        Come off it. Even if you had to pay the full whack of proposed fees, £9k a year, that's £27k for a standard degree, which spread over a 40 year working life is £56 a month. Hardly an earth shattering around, is it?

As other have already pointed out (but which I'll repeat, as you obviously hail from the 'I'm alright Jack' school of social exclusion') - that doesn't include all the other things which a GRANT used to cover, like food in your stomach, rent, books, clothers etc

    That's ignoring interest... one of the other changes I believe is that the interest rates on student loans will cease to be as favourable.

And you're ignoring wage inflation, say about 10%. What's the interest on these loans, much lower than that?

Quote from: moley on Today at 05:02:34 PM

    And this is *just* for tuition fees - doesn't cover rent / food, even before you get into non-essentials like going out..

But students have always had to pay their own rent, food and spending.

Yes, - once covered using A GRANT which has been frozen how long now?!


Quote from: moley on Today at 05:02:34 PM

    Whether it's an earth-shattering amount depends on what the graduate ends up doing and how much they end up earning - my understanding is that this amount becomes payable at around £15K (but I could be wrong) - at that level of salary this is a very significant amount.  Not all graduates become chief executive of the local council..

Then someone needs to take a serious look at what jobs "require" a degree and only pay £15k.

So, if you're the son or daughter of the well heeled, fine, go off and do whatever degree you wish, because for you at least, the subject and its relationship to a final salary is of no consequence. As for the rest of us, we now are supposed to consider a degree NOT based upon the interest or aptitude we show for the subject, but according to the criteria of the amount of money we can expect to earn as a result of achieving that degree! Well, that's the basic concept of an equitable and balanced education system out of the window then, isn't it? Lets all study to be bankers then - seems pretty lucrative and its EXACTLY what our society needs more of eh? Jesus. PAV, your ignorance shines like an industrial laser. Many many many graduate jobs pay an absolute pittance. £15k would not be atypical at all.

Come back Dickens, Pav has some ideas they'd like to share with the Whigs and the Tories which would suit the 19th century down to the intellectual and moral ground.

I wonder if PAV didn't get into uni and is therefore jealous of an opportunity they never took up - or if they did and money was no object so they couldn't care less?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita

Offline moley

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Re: 10.11.10 - Demolition March - Central London
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2010, 07:42:03 pm »
Everyone starts a degree with the expectation of coming out and getting a "graduate" job.

Not everyone ends up getting one...

Also there are degree courses which tend to lead to jobs/roles where people are self employed with potentially very lumpy cash-flow..

Pretty much everyone in the government in senior positions is my age or older... which means that they got:
  • A maintenance grant for living expenses (means tested)
  • No tuition fees
  • If older than me, housing benefit (this was phased out while I was at university)

There may be a separate discussion about whether there are too many degree places in subjects that aren't particularly useful...

I found this article completely bizarre:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8122581/David-Cameron-admits-tuition-fees-increase-will-keep-cost-to-foreign-students-down.html
Moley

 

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