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rob-magic

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Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« on: January 07, 2009, 08:26:16 pm »
Are We the Experiment?

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete
when everything the American public believes is false."
-- William Casey, CIA Director (from first staff meeting, 1981)

Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal,
SoOR Newspaper Ad
1-5-9
 
Full-page advertisement placed in a Redding, California paper recently by a group of concerned citizens


http://www.rense.com


Offline PenhillLad

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2009, 06:48:14 pm »
If you watch 'Endgame' by Alex Jones he mentions Chemtrail fallout in Wiltshire and the military testing chemical warfare agents over the county in the 1960s.

Me and my friend often take photographs of Chemtrails over Swindon and Calne I'll post a few up if anyone wants them. We need to find where the planes are taking off and track them ideally
Just look how this United Kingdom has become, Within the council estates where we'll fight over crumbs,  We got young single parent mums, Having th

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 07:59:58 pm »

They're almost certainly going to be contrails.

The 60 to 90 seconds definition of the 'life' of a contrail, as frequently used differentiate a contrail from a chemtrail, is completely false.

I'm not saying chemtrails don't exist elsewhere in the world, and I'm not saying they haven't ever appeared over Wiltshire.....

.... but they do not exist in the numbers or frequency that are frequently claimed for them.

I know you and Rob want to believe otherwise, and the flyer posted above looks great,  but it's evidential value is almost worthless and you're both wrong.  :santa_smiley:

 


Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 08:04:17 pm »
 
We need to find where the planes are taking off and track them ideally


You have hundreds of candidate airports because almost anything leaving a contrail is commercial traffic, in commercial air corridors, flying into and out of civilian airports.

Anything flying the MATS corridor into a military airfield is usually too low and too slow to leave a trail anyway.

rob-magic

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 01:13:40 pm »
Hi Geoff!


I know you and Rob want to believe otherwise


I'm afraid you couldn't be further from the truth. I most certainly do NOT want to believe that were being showered with anything, let alone Barium particles or nanotechnology. I would certainly enjoy nothing more than just sitting back and laughing at conspiracy theorists in the 'knowledge' that I'm right in thinking 'they' are just a big bunch of 'loons with nothing better to do' as so frequently portrayed by the media. Unfortunately, the fact that I give a damn forces me to review the situation. Furthermore, all we have to go on is a general blackout from scientists, the media etc. - Not to say that is proof positive, but how is laughing at something proof negative.

We've had the odd weather reporter's comments about military spraying on the odd occasion and we've had labs supposedly refuse to test. - I post here to make aware, not offer for challenge. All anyone has to do to challenge is repeat what the media says. For progress, what should be done is assume (hypothetically) foul play and try to prove it.

Cheers.

Offline Mart

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 04:45:52 pm »
For progress, what should be done is assume (hypothetically) foul play and try to prove it.

Are you the Home Secretary?
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rob-magic

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 05:09:40 pm »
lol

Offline PenhillLad

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 05:23:31 pm »

We need to find where the planes are taking off and track them ideally


You have hundreds of candidate airports because almost anything leaving a contrail is commercial traffic, in commercial air corridors, flying into and out of civilian airports.

Anything flying the MATS corridor into a military airfield is usually too low and too slow to leave a trail anyway.

AHA !!!! Here I have caught you.

There is a difference between a chemtrail and a contrail!

A chemtrail is a chemical trail which stays in the air and slowly expands into a massive, thin film across the sky which slowly descends to earth. They are often sprayed in grids or patterns.

A contrail is a normal trail from the back of an aircraft consisting of ice crystals which fades after around 15 seconds.

Quite obviously if they are spraying us, they will only fly high so the idiotic masses believe they are normal contrails.

If you want video evidence of these contrails expanding, consult youtube. These aren't faked as I have seen them with my very own eyes and so has anyone who looks above their own head on a clear day.
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Offline Tobes

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2009, 01:15:43 pm »
Some people beleive the world is flat too - I'm sure you can find some Youtube 'evidence' on there. Don't make it so though, does it?

Some people also thought faries were real, based on photographic 'evidence', a warped interpretation of reality and a need to believe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottingley_Fairies
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Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2009, 01:17:20 pm »
 
 
AHA !!!! Here I have caught you.

There is a difference between a chemtrail and a contrail!

A chemtrail is a chemical trail which stays in the air and slowly expands into a massive, thin film across the sky which slowly descends to earth. They are often sprayed in grids or patterns.

A contrail is a normal trail from the back of an aircraft consisting of ice crystals which fades after around 15 seconds.

Quite obviously if they are spraying us, they will only fly high so the idiotic masses believe they are normal contrails.

If you want video evidence of these contrails expanding, consult youtube. These aren't faked as I have seen them with my very own eyes and so has anyone who looks above their own head on a clear day.

No, I'm afraid you haven't 'caught me' and I am not one of the 'idiotic masses'.

What you have done though, is highlighted a significant gap in your own understanding of the physical principles and facts which you're relying on to 'prove' your case for chemtrails.

If you don't understand, or refuse to acknowledge, the basic science behind contrail formation, you are fundamentally incapable of differentiating between contrails or chemtrails.


This is a basic fact, accept it or ignore it, but I assure you it is true:

Depending on altitude, temperature, vapour pressure and humidity, aircraft contrails can have a lifetime as short a 0 seconds, or as long as several hours. 


But firstly, I'll take your quote, (my italic emphasis):


Quote
A contrail is a normal trail from the back of an aircraft consisting of ice crystals which fades after around 15 seconds.

....and illustrate why your addition of one single incorrect statement to a known fact not only seriously weakens your argument, but throws into doubt your ability to correctly identify, or differentiate between either a contrail or a chemtrail.

Presenting your own eyewitness accounts of seeing and photographing chemtrails above Wiltshire, and referring to similar Youtube video as 'evidence for' only strengthens the argument that the authors of such videos are also wrong if they are relying upon the 'lifetime of a contrail is too long, therefore it proves it is a chemtrail' method for identifying chemtrails.  It is not just a flawed basis from which to consider and investigate the subject, it is also utterly wrong.

I've spent some time researching this and, although I don't claim to be an expert, I'm confident that my understanding of the scientific and provable facts surrounding the chemtrails vs contrails argument is now considerably better than many.  I'm not trying to patronise chemtrail 'believers', I'm just stating an opinion based on what I've seen written so far, especially as it pertains to Wiltshire.



The Proven facts:


Contrails are not specific to any particular kind of aircraft or speed range.

Contrails can be formed by military or civil aircraft, piston engined, jet engined, subsonic or supersonic vehicles, aircraft or rockets. The type of air vehicle is irrelevant.

Depending on altitude, temperature, vapour pressure and humidity, aircraft contrails can have a lifetime as short a 0 seconds, or as long as several hours



So why do contrails form and what are they?:


The key to the formation of contrails is atmospheric conditions. Contrail formation is dependent upon the temperature, relative humidity, and air pressure in which the vehicle is flying.

In addition to temperature, humidity and pressure, the ratio of moisture to heat produced by the vehicle's engine is important. In particular, the ambient air temperature, and vapour pressure must both be low for a contrail to form.  Vapour pressure is the pressure of water vapour within the atmosphere.

When ambient air is mixed with the humid, hot exhaust of an aircraft engine a contrail will, or will not form based one of three basic conditions.

1. If the exhaust mixture is not saturated with moisture, a contrail will not form.

2. If the exhaust mixture is saturated or supersaturated with moisture, and the ambient vapour pressure is just high enough, a contrail will form, but it will be short lived.

3. If the exhaust mixture is saturated or supersaturated with moisture, and the ambient vapour pressure also saturated, a lasting contrail will form and, if the vapour pressure is high enough may continue to grow as ice crystals multiply in the saturated atmosphere.

The picture below illustrates the conditions under which both clouds and contrails form, (the same basic principles apply in the formation of both.

The blue line represents the saturation vapour pressure of ice versus air temperature. If the vapour pressure equals or exceeds this line at a given temperature, the water vapour will condense and form ice.





A quick recap then:

The points labeled A and B represent two hypothetical conditions, both unsaturated. Let's assume that point A is the temperature and vapor pressure of the ambient air at the aircraft's cruising altitude. Point B is the conditions within the aircraft's exhaust. As the two mix, the temperature and pressure equalize. If the final conditions intersect or lie above the blue line, the mixture becomes saturated and a contrail will form. Otherwise, the mixture remains unsaturated and dissipates.

Eventually, all clouds and contrails will dissipate, but the length of time they endure is related to the atmospheric conditions as well as the strength of the winds. If the contrail is formed when the local atmosphere is dry, it may dissipate rapidly. But if the atmosphere is near saturation, it will exist for a long period of time, perhaps spreading or mixing with naturally-formed clouds until it is unrecognisable as a contrail but frequently misidentified as a chemtrail.


Climatologists have become concerned about the increase in air travel over recent decades, partly because of CO2 emmissions, but also because with the increased efficiency of turbofan engines, and an increasing frequency of flights, the numbers of visible contrails are rising.

It has been estimated elsewhere that cloud cover may increase by up to 20% in some heavily-travelled areas due to man-made contrails which may also impact on the climate due to solar radiation being reflected.

And now...chemtrails:

I do not deny that chemtrails do exist, and have been deliberately produced by military aviation.  Designers of stealth aircraft have tried injecting various chemicals, mostly toxic I suspect into aircrafts exhaust in attempts to modify both the infra red heat signatures of the vehicle and to eliminate visible contrails being spotted.  I doubt that such vehicles are routinely tested in the skies above Wiltshire and, in the final analysis it is easier for a military pilot to adjust his altitude downwards to the point where a contrail will not form.

I do not deny that chemtrails are deliberately produced elsewhere by weather researchers, I do not deny that chemtrails are deliberately produced elsewhere by fire fighters.

I do not challenge the claim that the military tested chemical warfare agents over the county in the 1960s, in fact this wouldn't surprise me....

...but I do challenge the belief that chemtrails in Wiltshire skies are a regularly observable phenomenon and I think this belief stems from lack of understanding of how contrails actually form, and is encouraged by the indiscriminate use of 'dumbed down physics' by those people intent on promoting a great conspiracy theory. If you think you are seeing chemtrail, and base that belief mostly on the 'contrails only last 'x' number of seconds argument,  you're on a non-starter if you want to prove their existence in Wiltshire.
 
I'm happy to discuss the hideous logistical problem that operating the UK component of such a massive conspiracy throws up, but after spending some time within commercial pilots forums it's already evident to me that the closer you start looking at 'chemtrails', the less reliable the 'evidence' for them becomes, particularly 'eyewitness' evidence.

PL says:

Quote
If you want video evidence of these contrails expanding, consult youtube. These aren't faked as I have seen them with my very own eyes and so has anyone who looks above their own head on a clear day.

It shouldn't really be necessary to keep arguing the core points of the above quote unless there is a willingness to ignore the rules of physics as they relate to contrail formation and revert to a 'flat-earth' philosophical position. 

I think PL's assertion that:

Quote
Quite obviously if they are spraying us, they will only fly high so the idiotic masses believe they are normal contrails.

Would be better expressed as:

Quote
Quite obviously if Wiltshire people believe they are being sprayed with chemtrails, they should acquaint themselves with the facts before listening to an idiotic minority who are publishing fiction as fact


A final thought, (for now). Here's a smashing picture of a formation of B17 flying fortresses on their way to bomb somewhere or other during the second world war.

Given that the B17's cruising speed was a fairly sedate 180'ish mph, and that the length and density of contrails in the picture would suggest a lengthy contrail 'lifetime', and that deliberately creating a very visible trail for enemy fighter pilots to see during a daytime bombing raid seems idiotic.....

....I wonder whether Penhill Lad an Rob would like to make some comment.






« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 01:39:24 pm by Geoff Reid »

Offline Mart

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2009, 06:33:49 pm »
I think they deliberately produce contrails as a navigational aid. In the event the navigator has a kip, or the Tom Tom issued in lieu of the promised kit which has gone over budget and behind schedule packs up, the pilot simply follows the contrail home. It's a similar idea to that greek bloke who chopped off the bull headed bloke's head in Hampton Court maze or something, he used a ball of twine I think cos they didn't have Tom Toms, well unless you believe Erich Von Daniken, in which case he might have, which would have rendered the ball of string superfluous other than to enrich the story.

Course this could prove disastrous if the enemy fighters also produced contrails and you followed the wrong one home. I saw a programme today while I was waiting for my fridge freezer (sorry guv, too big) and washing machine (ooh, it's got a bit of a ding in it) where Japanese Zero's tried to land on the Yorktown, I can only suggest that different colour contrails are tried, or indeed scented and my electrical retailer get their collective finger out.

Commercial flights make contrails to make me envious of the lucky sods going somewhere nice with sunshine, cheap fags and beer served too cold that makes you wee a lot.

I wonder if contrails are in fact trails of wee from flushing toilets.

Hope this has helped clear things up for everyone.

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rob-magic

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 01:55:15 am »
Interesting picture Geoff, however you enjoy attempting to intimidate far too much in your words for me to want to respond point by point.

Why do you have to refer to people as idiots if they don't think the same way as you (or if you don't think the same as them).

I think the picture of the bombers (en-route to concentration camps no doubt) is interesting. A pity the picture so close up. The planes in the bottom left seem to make little or no trails, indicating disipation and is it also possible that the fuel and engines used kicked out more gunk back then?

It's a pity, although Geoff, you appear to be doing some homework here of which I'm glad, you still seem to be looking at the topic with the idea that it's based on misconceptions.



lol as usual Mart.


Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 09:14:26 am »
Why do you have to refer to people as idiots if they don't think the same way as you (or if you don't think the same as them).

Exsqueeze me?

I'm not calling you or Pl idiots, it was, in fact PL calling everybody who doesn't agree with you idiotic. I just paraphrased it and bunged it back at the likes of vialls and truthseeker.

Quite obviously if they are spraying us, they will only fly high so the idiotic masses believe they are normal contrails.

I don't 'enjoy attempting to humiliate' anyone Rob.  If you are feeling humiliated, perhaps it's the first painful flush of realising that the arguments you regularly use to 'prove' the existence of chemtrails over the uk is fundamentally wrong?

To use one of your favourite phrases; I'm 'informing you'. If I wanted to humiliate you I would try to do it in a matter of seconds, you don't interest or annoy me enough to warrant 20 minutes worth of typing. No offence like, it's just how it is.

But, isn't your semantic whinging about idiots and humiliation just a cover for your lack of cogent reply?.... apart from:

Quote
The planes in the bottom left seem to make little or no trails, indicating disipation and is it also possible that the fuel and engines used kicked out more gunk back then?

It would be more interesting if they were flying at the same altitude as those aircraft leaving contrails, but not leaving contrails themselves.  It's fairly obvious however, that they are travelling at a lower altitude and through air with a different level of saturation, (vapour pressure).  Condition 1 from the saturation explanation applies.


Then you said:

Quote from: Rob
It's a pity, although Geoff, you still seem to be looking at the topic with the idea that it's based on misconceptions.

Once again, it's fairly obvious you haven't read the post, or if you have read it, you haven't understood what you've read.  Probably my own fault for including pictures.


I think I was quite clear, emphatic even, on where I believe the misconceptions are....

Quote from: me
I do not deny that chemtrails are deliberately produced elsewhere by weather researchers, I do not deny that chemtrails are deliberately produced elsewhere by fire fighters.

I do not challenge the claim that the military tested chemical warfare agents over the county in the 1960s, in fact this wouldn't surprise me....

...but I do challenge the belief that chemtrails in Wiltshire skies are a regularly observable phenomenon and I think this belief stems from lack of understanding of how contrails actually form, and is encouraged by the indiscriminate use of 'dumbed down physics' by those people intent on promoting a great conspiracy theory.

If you think you are seeing chemtrails, and base that belief mostly on the 'contrails only last 'x' number of seconds argument,  you're on a non-starter if you want to prove their existence in Wiltshire.

I am clearly not disputing the existence of chemtrails. 

What I clearly am disputing is your ability, and the ability of Penhill Lad to correctly identify what is, and what is not a chemtrail, and therefore challenging both your, and Penhill Lads', assertions that we, in Swindon, are regularly being exposed to airborn material being delivered via chemtrails and that chemtrails are regularly visible over Wiltshire.



Rob, if you're going to keep sliding away from replying to counter-argument by claiming to be 'humiliated', 'offended', 'insulted'.....you're simply allowing coffin nails to be driven into the lid of all your arguments and theories.

This doesn't bother me as it's not you I'm writing for, but you might want to give some thought as to how sincere an authors beliefs are perceived to be when they, (more often than not), won't defend their publications.
 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 01:56:21 pm by Dougal »

Offline Tobes

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2010, 05:35:56 pm »
I just wanted to bring up this old thread because it struck me that it has new relevance in the light of the flight cancellations the other month due to the Icelandic volcano (the one with the unpronounceable name)

It was interesting to note during those couple of weeks how different the sky looked - and how accustomed I'd become to seeing contrails - and how odd the sky actually looked without them. I was also pretty convinced that the sky looked clearer, presumably as a result of losing the 'milky' hazwe of the dissipating contrails. On one point, it did lead me to wonder whether contrails might therefore actually have a measurable environmental effect due to the sunlight they might be filtering - or the effects the ice/vapour cystals might be having either trapping heat in or reflecting sunlight back into space. I wondered if anyone might have seen or read anything to that subject?

Either way, we had several weeks with either no or very limited contrails over Swindon... That would seem to me to give us the opportunity to investigate something. If the 'chemtrails' are being produced deliberately, then such an endeavour must be highly expensive. It must therefore be being done to some highly impacting purpose. Therefore, if there's an absence of 'chemtrails' for some considerable period, there ought also to be some measurable impact/response to their absence.... otherwise... there's no point to them.... And if there's no point to them, then they almost certainly don't exist, and what we see are what most rational people think they are: High level ice crystals and water vapour...

Rob (or at least some of his links) alluded to 'mind control'. I'm not sure what his fellow disciples TrevG and PenhillLad believed regarding their purpose, but did we see some mass awakening of suppressed minds during those weeks?! Did we also note any anomalous changes in weather or any other environmental measurements?

... could the lack of 'chemtrails' during the campaigning season explain the result of the election....?!  ;)
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Offline moley

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2010, 06:59:30 pm »

Either way, we had several weeks with either no or very limited contrails over Swindon... That would seem to me to give us the opportunity to investigate something. If the 'chemtrails' are being produced deliberately, then such an endeavour must be highly expensive. It must therefore be being done to some highly impacting purpose. Therefore, if there's an absence of 'chemtrails' for some considerable period, there ought also to be some measurable impact/response to their absence.... otherwise... there's no point to them.... And if there's no point to them, then they almost certainly don't exist, and what we see are what most rational people think they are: High level ice crystals and water vapour...



I remember seeing a program about 9/11 that talked about some analysis of data on 9/11 and 9/12 in the US (when virtually no planes were flying).  Will see if I can dig it out...

Offline Muggins

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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2010, 08:51:47 pm »
It was reported on a tele programme that when the planes were grounded for 9/11 the temperature over America went up 5 degrees.

Why would anyone want to spray us with anything on purpose and who is paying for it?  'cause if there is any spare cash going they could use it to empty Marts bin.

During our plane grounding, we had a blooming great cloud of volcanic dust between us and heaven, wouldn't that have made a difference if anything did?

Does make you wonder how our Mum and Dad lived to be 86 and 89 and I have two siblings in their late 70's and early 80's. And they lived a god part of their lives before the clean air act.  What ever is being spewed out hasn't got them yet.
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Re: Chemtrail Fallout In NoCal, SoOR Newspaper Ad
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2010, 09:18:40 pm »
we need Rob..........at least he'd answer questions........ albeit a link  :-\
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